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	<title>Comments on: Insightful or patronising?</title>
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	<description>Management, communications, persuasion</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Unspun</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1647</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Unspun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] Recent Comments unspun on Monte spins again!Yu Phuc on Insightful or patronising?Kay on Monte spins again!Monte spins again! &#171; Unspun on Chutzpah and the Bali swimmer780CSR &#187; Haze and CSR on Hazing the argument [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Recent Comments unspun on Monte spins again!Yu Phuc on Insightful or patronising?Kay on Monte spins again!Monte spins again! &laquo; Unspun on Chutzpah and the Bali swimmer780CSR &raquo; Haze and CSR on Hazing the argument [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yu Phuc</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1630</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yu Phuc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 09:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1630</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, folks, in case you have not heard, the JP ran Thang&#039;s piece yesterday.  It is not as sharp as it was originally, however.

Here is how it appeared:

Beauty, indeed, is in the eyes of the beholder! 
The Jakarta Post
Sunday, 28 October 2006
LIFEBITES

By Thang D. Nguyen

As my friend and I sipped our coffees oneSunday afternoon at Plaza Indonesia, he asked, “Don’t you think that many of the Indonesian women that white foreigners (buleh) go out with or marry are so unattractive?”

“Not necessarily so,” I replied.

Beauty, like many things in life, is bound by the rule of relativity. In other words, what one man considers beautiful is ugly in the eyes of another.

Being an Indonesian himself, my friend’s view of a beautiful woman is that of a fair-skinned one, who has the look of a financially independent, educated, and classy lady.

Thus, in his eyes, an Indonesian woman with a dark complexion is not beautiful.

While my friend is entitled to his opinion of what is a beautiful woman and what is not, I don’t find anything wrong with foreign (white) men being attracted to dark-skinned Indonesian women.

For an Asian man like my friend, these women surely look like maids.

In most Asian societies, a dark complexion is the symbol of peasantry, hard labor, and life in a rural area. By contrast, a fair complexion is the symbol of high-society status, leisure, and life a cosmopolitan city.

To a western man, however, a dark-skinned woman is beautiful.

For one thing, this is because opposites attract. Ethnically speaking, western peoples are white by default. So, it is understandable that a western man finds a dark-skinned Indonesian woman “exotic”, or a white woman finds a black man attractive—if not sexy.

Furthermore, a dark complexion now is considered a sign of leisure, or class, in most western societies, particularly in America.

Before the Industrial Revolution and many technological inventions thereafter, farming in the West required hard labor and long hours in the sun. Thus, a westerner with a dark complexion would be looked upon as a farmer.

Today, however, farming in the West is done with machines. Therefore, even white farmers don’t get a dark complexion.

As a matter of fact, many westerners with a fair complexion now have to work hard to get a dark one. They spend hours in the sun or spas to get a tan.

This is, of course, not something that a laborer or farmer has time or money for.

It is no wonder, then, that white westerners desire a dark complexion or are attracted to others who have one.

As I left my friend after our meeting, I passed by a few white men walking around Plaza Indonesia with chocolate-skinned Indonesian women and couldn’t help thinking of what my friend had said about beauty.

Looking at these women, I could see why my friend would consider them unattractive.

But, the men they were with could not have looked happier; perhaps, they found in these women the beauty they had been seeing in fashion shows or magazines in their respective countries.

As for me, I was—and still am—just glad that we all have a different taste for different things in life.

Indeed, the world would be a horrible place to live if we all liked or disliked the same things, wouldn’t it?

Fortunately, the world is not like that, thanks to relativity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, folks, in case you have not heard, the JP ran Thang&#8217;s piece yesterday.  It is not as sharp as it was originally, however.</p>
<p>Here is how it appeared:</p>
<p>Beauty, indeed, is in the eyes of the beholder!<br />
The Jakarta Post<br />
Sunday, 28 October 2006<br />
LIFEBITES</p>
<p>By Thang D. Nguyen</p>
<p>As my friend and I sipped our coffees oneSunday afternoon at Plaza Indonesia, he asked, “Don’t you think that many of the Indonesian women that white foreigners (buleh) go out with or marry are so unattractive?”</p>
<p>“Not necessarily so,” I replied.</p>
<p>Beauty, like many things in life, is bound by the rule of relativity. In other words, what one man considers beautiful is ugly in the eyes of another.</p>
<p>Being an Indonesian himself, my friend’s view of a beautiful woman is that of a fair-skinned one, who has the look of a financially independent, educated, and classy lady.</p>
<p>Thus, in his eyes, an Indonesian woman with a dark complexion is not beautiful.</p>
<p>While my friend is entitled to his opinion of what is a beautiful woman and what is not, I don’t find anything wrong with foreign (white) men being attracted to dark-skinned Indonesian women.</p>
<p>For an Asian man like my friend, these women surely look like maids.</p>
<p>In most Asian societies, a dark complexion is the symbol of peasantry, hard labor, and life in a rural area. By contrast, a fair complexion is the symbol of high-society status, leisure, and life a cosmopolitan city.</p>
<p>To a western man, however, a dark-skinned woman is beautiful.</p>
<p>For one thing, this is because opposites attract. Ethnically speaking, western peoples are white by default. So, it is understandable that a western man finds a dark-skinned Indonesian woman “exotic”, or a white woman finds a black man attractive—if not sexy.</p>
<p>Furthermore, a dark complexion now is considered a sign of leisure, or class, in most western societies, particularly in America.</p>
<p>Before the Industrial Revolution and many technological inventions thereafter, farming in the West required hard labor and long hours in the sun. Thus, a westerner with a dark complexion would be looked upon as a farmer.</p>
<p>Today, however, farming in the West is done with machines. Therefore, even white farmers don’t get a dark complexion.</p>
<p>As a matter of fact, many westerners with a fair complexion now have to work hard to get a dark one. They spend hours in the sun or spas to get a tan.</p>
<p>This is, of course, not something that a laborer or farmer has time or money for.</p>
<p>It is no wonder, then, that white westerners desire a dark complexion or are attracted to others who have one.</p>
<p>As I left my friend after our meeting, I passed by a few white men walking around Plaza Indonesia with chocolate-skinned Indonesian women and couldn’t help thinking of what my friend had said about beauty.</p>
<p>Looking at these women, I could see why my friend would consider them unattractive.</p>
<p>But, the men they were with could not have looked happier; perhaps, they found in these women the beauty they had been seeing in fashion shows or magazines in their respective countries.</p>
<p>As for me, I was—and still am—just glad that we all have a different taste for different things in life.</p>
<p>Indeed, the world would be a horrible place to live if we all liked or disliked the same things, wouldn’t it?</p>
<p>Fortunately, the world is not like that, thanks to relativity.</p>
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		<title>By: Sudogiman</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1320</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sudogiman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 02:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Big Fella (that&#039;s Polar Bear), there hasn&#039;t been much that&#039;s beautiful about this thread, harping on about skin colour, dental status and ethnic stereotypes. That said, it&#039;s good to have restored a measure of decorum and respect.

Why would you even compare Jung Chang with Evelyn Waugh ? That&#039;s like comparing your prose (basic, functional), with Thang&#039;s (insightful, nuanced, elegant). 

Thang, like Joseph Conrad, has achieved mastery of the English language precisely because (italics), it&#039;s not his native tongue, Big Fella. He&#039;s explicitly studied grammar and syntax, unlike many native-speakers such as yourself and others, who spend their leisure time conversing with the swarthy Blok M skanks. 

In terms of breadth, insight and sheer literary force, Thang has few rivals among the columnists in Asia. Lately, he&#039;s shown a new versatility and sensitivy branching out into relationship issues.   That people whose idea of a relationship is handing over Rp.200,000 for &quot;taxi money&quot; in the morning is impertinent at best ! 

Yours respectfully, Sudogiman.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big Fella (that&#8217;s Polar Bear), there hasn&#8217;t been much that&#8217;s beautiful about this thread, harping on about skin colour, dental status and ethnic stereotypes. That said, it&#8217;s good to have restored a measure of decorum and respect.</p>
<p>Why would you even compare Jung Chang with Evelyn Waugh ? That&#8217;s like comparing your prose (basic, functional), with Thang&#8217;s (insightful, nuanced, elegant). </p>
<p>Thang, like Joseph Conrad, has achieved mastery of the English language precisely because (italics), it&#8217;s not his native tongue, Big Fella. He&#8217;s explicitly studied grammar and syntax, unlike many native-speakers such as yourself and others, who spend their leisure time conversing with the swarthy Blok M skanks. </p>
<p>In terms of breadth, insight and sheer literary force, Thang has few rivals among the columnists in Asia. Lately, he&#8217;s shown a new versatility and sensitivy branching out into relationship issues.   That people whose idea of a relationship is handing over Rp.200,000 for &#8220;taxi money&#8221; in the morning is impertinent at best ! </p>
<p>Yours respectfully, Sudogiman.</p>
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		<title>By: Polar Bear</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1313</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Polar Bear]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1313</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Speaking a language is like reading a book. You can know many languages at a basic level, or know one in depth, just as you can read one book in its entirety or read a single page out of a number of books.

The sad fact is that many people who speak English as a first language, and even those who teach it, miss much of its sheer beauty. Popularity has reduced it to a minimum communication level. Sadly I place myself firmly in this class.

Read Wild Swans, Jung Changs description of her life in China, then read Sword of honour Evelyn Waughs semi autobiographical description of his WW2 experiences. 

One is a pleasant read, with interesting content. The other is a work of art.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking a language is like reading a book. You can know many languages at a basic level, or know one in depth, just as you can read one book in its entirety or read a single page out of a number of books.</p>
<p>The sad fact is that many people who speak English as a first language, and even those who teach it, miss much of its sheer beauty. Popularity has reduced it to a minimum communication level. Sadly I place myself firmly in this class.</p>
<p>Read Wild Swans, Jung Changs description of her life in China, then read Sword of honour Evelyn Waughs semi autobiographical description of his WW2 experiences. </p>
<p>One is a pleasant read, with interesting content. The other is a work of art.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: unspun</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1308</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[unspun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Indcoup: I fear you missed the point I was trying to make in these discussions. I take the responsibility of not being absolutely clear but it was difficult with the Jakchat boys yelling and running around the blog.

My point is that there is a perception among many Asians that bules like women with pembantu looks. I am not saying whether it is right or not but that there exists such a perception.

If we accept this then the next question to ask is how this perception came about? Is it a reasonable perception or is it a manifestation of other deep seated emotions among the Asians.

Why bule men and Asian women? Well, as explained earlier,white guys stand out in a brown crowd, just as a brown guy would stand out in a pink crowd. But we are in asia so the former is more topical.

Communism? I don&#039;t follow your reference.

Your mate being half black and half white: easy. Kopi Susu. ;-D]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indcoup: I fear you missed the point I was trying to make in these discussions. I take the responsibility of not being absolutely clear but it was difficult with the Jakchat boys yelling and running around the blog.</p>
<p>My point is that there is a perception among many Asians that bules like women with pembantu looks. I am not saying whether it is right or not but that there exists such a perception.</p>
<p>If we accept this then the next question to ask is how this perception came about? Is it a reasonable perception or is it a manifestation of other deep seated emotions among the Asians.</p>
<p>Why bule men and Asian women? Well, as explained earlier,white guys stand out in a brown crowd, just as a brown guy would stand out in a pink crowd. But we are in asia so the former is more topical.</p>
<p>Communism? I don&#8217;t follow your reference.</p>
<p>Your mate being half black and half white: easy. Kopi Susu. ;-D</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: indcoup</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1306</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[indcoup]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 05:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1306</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[unspun: if you feel that white man&#039;s taste in Asian women is worthy of such coverage, do you not also agree that you should devote some time to Asian men&#039;s taste in white women?  Just to be fair of course.

PS: communism is a nasty Godless ideology in my opinion and those devils should be rooted out

PPS: my mate is half black half white. Is he a bule? Or a half bule? Please let me know.

regards]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>unspun: if you feel that white man&#8217;s taste in Asian women is worthy of such coverage, do you not also agree that you should devote some time to Asian men&#8217;s taste in white women?  Just to be fair of course.</p>
<p>PS: communism is a nasty Godless ideology in my opinion and those devils should be rooted out</p>
<p>PPS: my mate is half black half white. Is he a bule? Or a half bule? Please let me know.</p>
<p>regards</p>
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		<title>By: Sudogiman</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sudogiman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unspun ! 

How DARE you accuse Thang of baiting the unwary ? Thang gives a voice to those who have none. :P He stands up for the meek, the bullied and the disaffected. :P. 
In short, Thang fulfills the central mission of the journalist: to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. 
How can you, of all people, belittle his achievements by saying that his objective was to: &quot;bait and stir up the easily excitable and then watch them make fools of themselves?&quot;... : P 
Sudogiman]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unspun ! </p>
<p>How DARE you accuse Thang of baiting the unwary ? Thang gives a voice to those who have none. <img src='http://s2.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  He stands up for the meek, the bullied and the disaffected. <img src='http://s2.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> .<br />
In short, Thang fulfills the central mission of the journalist: to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.<br />
How can you, of all people, belittle his achievements by saying that his objective was to: &#8220;bait and stir up the easily excitable and then watch them make fools of themselves?&#8221;&#8230; : P<br />
Sudogiman</p>
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		<title>By: treespotter</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1299</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[treespotter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[concurring with unspun&#039;s latest comment. i think the language was provocative and chauvinist. but the reaction just went so totally far off the mark, then it becomes amusing. 

well, at least for me, it&#039;s quite funny.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>concurring with unspun&#8217;s latest comment. i think the language was provocative and chauvinist. but the reaction just went so totally far off the mark, then it becomes amusing. </p>
<p>well, at least for me, it&#8217;s quite funny.</p>
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		<title>By: unspun</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1298</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[unspun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1298</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reveller: I&#039;m sorry you felt hurt by all that went on in this blog. That was certainly not the intention, at least on my part. Still, in a blog, one needs to be less than thin skinned to bear with the cut and thrust of (hopefully but not always) intellectual parrying.

Now that the dust has somewhat settled and the rather excitable chaps have retreated to their Jakchatroom to badmoouth the world, perhaps we can have a more rational argument here.

I felt that you did take a position that was not defensible. To say that unless someone was a native speaker they can never understand the connotations of a language was, I contend, an overextended statement.

I can see what you are driving at:that unless you grew up within a specific culture, your understanding of the words it uses can never be completely like that of the residents.

While it is true up to a point, English is so widespread, varied and international that there is virtually a universal understanding of the connotations of its words. On top of that there are the cultural layers, so collaboratorused by Germans may not have the same meaning if the word is used in, say, a scientific community in America.

My argument is that someone like Thang, and probably myself,  understands fully the connotations of this international English, as well as the connotations some of its words may have in other Western cultures. Therefore your statement cannot stand.

I think the confusion comes in when people mistake Thang&#039;s style of argument - which is by no means subtle - and his propensity to bait others with carefully selected provocative words -- with his command of the English language. That is why you (a collective you and not you specifically) may argue with his style of argument but not his command of the language.

And, with all respect, I did think that you shifted positions several times during the discussion that followed your original post. Hence the accusation that you dissembled. 

In all this, I think the ironic part of it is that Thang managed to secure his objective: to bait and stir up the easily excitable and then watch them make fools of themselves as they get angrier and angrier by his provocations. There is a lesson here for all of us somewhere.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reveller: I&#8217;m sorry you felt hurt by all that went on in this blog. That was certainly not the intention, at least on my part. Still, in a blog, one needs to be less than thin skinned to bear with the cut and thrust of (hopefully but not always) intellectual parrying.</p>
<p>Now that the dust has somewhat settled and the rather excitable chaps have retreated to their Jakchatroom to badmoouth the world, perhaps we can have a more rational argument here.</p>
<p>I felt that you did take a position that was not defensible. To say that unless someone was a native speaker they can never understand the connotations of a language was, I contend, an overextended statement.</p>
<p>I can see what you are driving at:that unless you grew up within a specific culture, your understanding of the words it uses can never be completely like that of the residents.</p>
<p>While it is true up to a point, English is so widespread, varied and international that there is virtually a universal understanding of the connotations of its words. On top of that there are the cultural layers, so collaboratorused by Germans may not have the same meaning if the word is used in, say, a scientific community in America.</p>
<p>My argument is that someone like Thang, and probably myself,  understands fully the connotations of this international English, as well as the connotations some of its words may have in other Western cultures. Therefore your statement cannot stand.</p>
<p>I think the confusion comes in when people mistake Thang&#8217;s style of argument &#8211; which is by no means subtle &#8211; and his propensity to bait others with carefully selected provocative words &#8212; with his command of the English language. That is why you (a collective you and not you specifically) may argue with his style of argument but not his command of the language.</p>
<p>And, with all respect, I did think that you shifted positions several times during the discussion that followed your original post. Hence the accusation that you dissembled. </p>
<p>In all this, I think the ironic part of it is that Thang managed to secure his objective: to bait and stir up the easily excitable and then watch them make fools of themselves as they get angrier and angrier by his provocations. There is a lesson here for all of us somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Reveller</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1294</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reveller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unspun.wordpress.com/2006/10/07/insightful-or-patronising/#comment-1294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Sudogiman,

I can appreciate your feelings, and I&#039;m sorry that this thread took the ugly turn that it did.

I joined in this discussion without any prejudice or personal axe to grind, in an attempt to help defuse the heated arguments on both sides. However, for my pains I get accused of &quot;dissembling&quot;, am branded as being &quot;patronising&quot; and &quot;condescending&quot;, and my reasoned arguments are dismissed as &quot;vacuous&quot;.

How do you think I feel about these comments? It seems the sensitivity in here is very one-sided. I can be criticised with very harsh words, but I may not raise the slightest murmur of criticism against certain individuals. People who live in glass houses shouldn&#039;t throw stones.

I&#039;m especially sorry that the discussion has degenerated, once again, to racial stereotypes, and that colour words have once more raised their ugly head.

My best wishes,

Reveller]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Sudogiman,</p>
<p>I can appreciate your feelings, and I&#8217;m sorry that this thread took the ugly turn that it did.</p>
<p>I joined in this discussion without any prejudice or personal axe to grind, in an attempt to help defuse the heated arguments on both sides. However, for my pains I get accused of &#8220;dissembling&#8221;, am branded as being &#8220;patronising&#8221; and &#8220;condescending&#8221;, and my reasoned arguments are dismissed as &#8220;vacuous&#8221;.</p>
<p>How do you think I feel about these comments? It seems the sensitivity in here is very one-sided. I can be criticised with very harsh words, but I may not raise the slightest murmur of criticism against certain individuals. People who live in glass houses shouldn&#8217;t throw stones.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m especially sorry that the discussion has degenerated, once again, to racial stereotypes, and that colour words have once more raised their ugly head.</p>
<p>My best wishes,</p>
<p>Reveller</p>
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