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	<title>Comments on: Oh those erotic upper arms!</title>
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	<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/</link>
	<description>Management, communications, persuasion</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jennie</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17366</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17366</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Achmad, in many ways, Indonesia is too stratified. A baby is basically born with a class (based on a combination of things), in addition to ethnicity, parents&#039; economy status, etc. There are layers within a stratum. Education plays some roles in the mobility of one&#039;s class, but it oftentimes doesn&#039;t play much role if the parents are influential. 

Race is a part of this class thingy. Certain ethnicities or sub ethnicities are perceived differently in the society (some are higher, some are lower). Mixed with other variables, it is pretty much a &quot;jungle&quot; in Indonesia. 

I&#039;ve lived in the United States for a decade and I see that babies are born without a class. Of course, this is my subjective point of view. He or she merely inherits his or her parent&#039;s last name, which may open more doors if the parent is an influential person. In the end, the person him or herself must prove to the world how well he or she can perform, so he or she can earn his own class, regardless of his or her race/ethnicity.

Such thing is a rarity, if not non-existent in Indonesia. Just my humble two cents.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Achmad, in many ways, Indonesia is too stratified. A baby is basically born with a class (based on a combination of things), in addition to ethnicity, parents&#8217; economy status, etc. There are layers within a stratum. Education plays some roles in the mobility of one&#8217;s class, but it oftentimes doesn&#8217;t play much role if the parents are influential. </p>
<p>Race is a part of this class thingy. Certain ethnicities or sub ethnicities are perceived differently in the society (some are higher, some are lower). Mixed with other variables, it is pretty much a &#8220;jungle&#8221; in Indonesia. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve lived in the United States for a decade and I see that babies are born without a class. Of course, this is my subjective point of view. He or she merely inherits his or her parent&#8217;s last name, which may open more doors if the parent is an influential person. In the end, the person him or herself must prove to the world how well he or she can perform, so he or she can earn his own class, regardless of his or her race/ethnicity.</p>
<p>Such thing is a rarity, if not non-existent in Indonesia. Just my humble two cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Achmad Sudarsono</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Achmad Sudarsono]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Racism in Indonesia&#039;s a strange one.  The Chinese have been victimized and targeted for centuries.  Often, though, it&#039;s a political top-down kind of racism.    On the street, the Chinese shopkeepers need to have good relations with their neighbors.  Of course, they&#039;ll often keep a big wad of cash stashed in the bank if things turn south. 

I&#039;ve shown in polite company you can get away with anti-&#039;Bule&#039; comments to a much greater degree than many other groups.  I&#039;ve been at dinner parties around Southeast Asia where stunning generalizations about Caucasians - some 1.2 billion or so people - are casually tossed around.  Payback for a colonial era modern-day Bule have never known ?  Just commentary on Australian &#039;arrogance&#039; ?  With Indonesians, it&#039;s &#039;orang bule this,&#039; or &#039;orang bule that&#039;.  

Naughty-naughty Unspun even stirred the pot a while back with a posting on why &#039;bule&#039; like women who look like &#039;pembantu.&#039;  In one post that skillfully ran the gauntlet, &#039;the Hong Kong Ronin&#039;, he talked about washed-up &#039;Bules&#039; in the media.  Mr. Unspun was fair in the &#039;Ronin&#039; post, but the simple word-associations would have stirred some careless readers.  :-)  (Aspiring stirrers like Achmad watched on in envy) :-). 

Then there are the Javanese, Acehnese, Bugis, Balinese, Minangs, Melayus and everyone else laballed &#039;pribumi.&#039;  I think it was the late carmudgeon Mochtar Lubis who railed against Indonesian ethnic bigotry.  One editor at a Jakarta newspaper from Aceh told me when he got to this city in the 1960s, people would just call him &#039;Eh- Sumatra&#039;.  Doesn&#039;t seem to have died. Mr. Kalla, no slouch on the bigotry front, admitted he couldn&#039;t run for President because he wasn&#039;t a Javanese.  Indonesian racism, more of a primordial, subconcious thing, perhaps ?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Racism in Indonesia&#8217;s a strange one.  The Chinese have been victimized and targeted for centuries.  Often, though, it&#8217;s a political top-down kind of racism.    On the street, the Chinese shopkeepers need to have good relations with their neighbors.  Of course, they&#8217;ll often keep a big wad of cash stashed in the bank if things turn south. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve shown in polite company you can get away with anti-&#8217;Bule&#8217; comments to a much greater degree than many other groups.  I&#8217;ve been at dinner parties around Southeast Asia where stunning generalizations about Caucasians &#8211; some 1.2 billion or so people &#8211; are casually tossed around.  Payback for a colonial era modern-day Bule have never known ?  Just commentary on Australian &#8216;arrogance&#8217; ?  With Indonesians, it&#8217;s &#8216;orang bule this,&#8217; or &#8216;orang bule that&#8217;.  </p>
<p>Naughty-naughty Unspun even stirred the pot a while back with a posting on why &#8216;bule&#8217; like women who look like &#8216;pembantu.&#8217;  In one post that skillfully ran the gauntlet, &#8216;the Hong Kong Ronin&#8217;, he talked about washed-up &#8216;Bules&#8217; in the media.  Mr. Unspun was fair in the &#8216;Ronin&#8217; post, but the simple word-associations would have stirred some careless readers.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   (Aspiring stirrers like Achmad watched on in envy) <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> . </p>
<p>Then there are the Javanese, Acehnese, Bugis, Balinese, Minangs, Melayus and everyone else laballed &#8216;pribumi.&#8217;  I think it was the late carmudgeon Mochtar Lubis who railed against Indonesian ethnic bigotry.  One editor at a Jakarta newspaper from Aceh told me when he got to this city in the 1960s, people would just call him &#8216;Eh- Sumatra&#8217;.  Doesn&#8217;t seem to have died. Mr. Kalla, no slouch on the bigotry front, admitted he couldn&#8217;t run for President because he wasn&#8217;t a Javanese.  Indonesian racism, more of a primordial, subconcious thing, perhaps ?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: unspun</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[unspun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jennie: Good idea. How about a guest blog from you on this issue since you are hafal with the issue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jennie: Good idea. How about a guest blog from you on this issue since you are hafal with the issue.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jennie</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sure, by all means. Include sex/gender issue of the minorities as well, because they experience the toughtest discriminations. Let me know when the posting is ready. ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, by all means. Include sex/gender issue of the minorities as well, because they experience the toughtest discriminations. Let me know when the posting is ready. <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: unspun</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[unspun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jenny: While not disagreeing with you, it is a separate discussion where gender is concerned. I would like to keep this posting focussed only on racial issues. Perhaps I&#039;ll insert a separate posting asking the question of where - in Indonesia or Malaysia -do women have it toughest? I suspect it is Indonesia.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jenny: While not disagreeing with you, it is a separate discussion where gender is concerned. I would like to keep this posting focussed only on racial issues. Perhaps I&#8217;ll insert a separate posting asking the question of where &#8211; in Indonesia or Malaysia -do women have it toughest? I suspect it is Indonesia.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jennie</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17035</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 16:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-17035</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How do you describe &quot;better inter-racial interactions&quot; in Indonesia?  In your subjective perspective, of course, being a double minority (not triple, because of your gender). 

Sex/gender makes a lot of difference in Indonesian society. 

Legally and culturally speaking, there are too many double standards for women in Indonesia. Some examples:

- Matrimony Law (UU 1/1974): man is the head of the household and woman is the housewife. (It is an obsolete concept, now many women have to work as bread winners and men stay at home. Whoever stays at home must take care of the house, not only women.)

- Engaging in agreements: A married woman must have her husband as a co-signer or gives permission for a legal agreement to be valid. (What if that husband is a slacker? An abusive one? No marriage is perfect and this law has a loophole as big as the volcanoe&#039;s.)

- Culturally, a woman must ask for permission from her husband to get a job. If he doesn&#039;t allow it for whatever reason, it&#039;s the end of discussion.

- More on the list. 

I&#039;m *not* a feminist, I simply believe in equality among all people (human rights equality).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you describe &#8220;better inter-racial interactions&#8221; in Indonesia?  In your subjective perspective, of course, being a double minority (not triple, because of your gender). </p>
<p>Sex/gender makes a lot of difference in Indonesian society. </p>
<p>Legally and culturally speaking, there are too many double standards for women in Indonesia. Some examples:</p>
<p>- Matrimony Law (UU 1/1974): man is the head of the household and woman is the housewife. (It is an obsolete concept, now many women have to work as bread winners and men stay at home. Whoever stays at home must take care of the house, not only women.)</p>
<p>- Engaging in agreements: A married woman must have her husband as a co-signer or gives permission for a legal agreement to be valid. (What if that husband is a slacker? An abusive one? No marriage is perfect and this law has a loophole as big as the volcanoe&#8217;s.)</p>
<p>- Culturally, a woman must ask for permission from her husband to get a job. If he doesn&#8217;t allow it for whatever reason, it&#8217;s the end of discussion.</p>
<p>- More on the list. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m *not* a feminist, I simply believe in equality among all people (human rights equality).</p>
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		<title>By: unspun</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-16999</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[unspun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-16999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jennie: My feeling is that things have changed by much in Indonesia, and for the better where inter-racial interactions are concerned.

It would be interesting to hear from others though on:
1. Are inter-racial relations better now than before in  Indonesia?
2. Overall, does Indonesia have better inter-racial relations or Malaysia?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jennie: My feeling is that things have changed by much in Indonesia, and for the better where inter-racial interactions are concerned.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to hear from others though on:<br />
1. Are inter-racial relations better now than before in  Indonesia?<br />
2. Overall, does Indonesia have better inter-racial relations or Malaysia?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jennie</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-16989</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-16989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, to be honest with you, it was hard living in Indonesia as a triple minority. I&#039;m not sure about current situations, though. Numbing one&#039;s self was the way to go back then. I have a lot of empathy for Siti. Good thing is I don&#039;t wear sleeveless tops (get cold easily). :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, to be honest with you, it was hard living in Indonesia as a triple minority. I&#8217;m not sure about current situations, though. Numbing one&#8217;s self was the way to go back then. I have a lot of empathy for Siti. Good thing is I don&#8217;t wear sleeveless tops (get cold easily). <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: unspun</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-16983</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[unspun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 03:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-16983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jennie: Yes. I cannot abide by people using religion or race as an excuse to act out their bigotry. Unfortunately, in Malaysia, this is allowed to go on with seeming tacit State encouragement or indifference more than other countries. let&#039;s see what action, if any, would be taken against the religious police who accosted and intimidated Siti.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jennie: Yes. I cannot abide by people using religion or race as an excuse to act out their bigotry. Unfortunately, in Malaysia, this is allowed to go on with seeming tacit State encouragement or indifference more than other countries. let&#8217;s see what action, if any, would be taken against the religious police who accosted and intimidated Siti.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jennie</title>
		<link>http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-16966</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theunspunblog.com/2007/07/06/oh-those-erotic-upper-arms/#comment-16966</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;Another reason why some of us choose to live away from Malaysia. 

Is this one of your reasons too, Unspun, may I ask?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Another reason why some of us choose to live away from Malaysia. </p>
<p>Is this one of your reasons too, Unspun, may I ask?</p>
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