Yes folks, the Malaysians are pissing off the Indonesians once again with their apparent “appropriation” of yet another Indonesian cultural ite, from this report by The malaysian (Oi, bro don’t call Indonesians Indons because they don’t like it lah).
As Unspun‘s explained before, all this is probably because of the difference in the definition of “Malay” between Malaysians and Indonesians (see here).
For Indonesian takee on the Reog Ponogoro controversy go here and here.
In the meantime Unspun‘s recalling what one of his readers told him some time ago: With all this appropriation of culture from Indonesia perhaps the Malaysian Tourism Board should change its logo to: Malaysia. Truly Indonesia! LOL
Angry Indons Protest Outside Our Embassy In Jakarta, Call Us ‘Thieves’
 It looks like some Indonesians are not in a particularly friendly mood vis a vis Malaysia these days. About a thousand of them held a protest today in front of our Embassy in Jakarta accusing us of promoting an Indonesian dance form as our own. So apart from the bad press we’ve been getting all over the world for being a fake democracy practicing a tempatan type of apartheid, now we’ve been condemned as cultural plagiarists as well.
The point of contention apparently was a Javanese mask dance, known as Reog Ponorogo which our Culture and Arts and Heritage Ministry has been claiming in tourism advertisements and brochures is a traditional Malay dance called Barongan. The similarities were obviously too great for the Indons to ignore, especially the dancers – men wearing enormous tiger heads and peacock feather masks, accompanied by acrobats.
|
|
|
Unspun 
Sorry friend. Will remember that and call the Indonesians as Indonesians in future. No offence meant bro. Have a good day and cheers.
LikeLike
Did I read right about the word “Apartheid”? Are they really serious? Do they really have proof? The only proof that I have on Malaysia practising Apartheid is in 1941, where census details showed that there were only 2.5 million “Malays” in Peninsular Malaysia. As there are only less than 3% “Malays” in Borneo, this 2.5 million figure offers conclusive proof that when the minority is the ruling class, Apartheid is in lpace. This explains why Najib’s Daddy, Razak had to import the 4 million Indonesians in the 60’s and 70’s. It also explains why the silly Malaysian Government is so hung-up on statistics of the Malays, and why Mahathir insists on Malays having 6.5 children by 2020.
This is really bad.
LikeLike
This is also in-line with the Discovery Channel’s “History of Singapore” whereby the Political Aide to Malaya, in a live interview stated why Malaya COULD NOT accept Singapore into Malaysia. He said, and I quote, ” …the Malays are already a minority in Malaya. With Singapore joining Malaysia, you will have another 2 million Chinese influx. How can we ever let Singapore join Malaysia? …” This is in the 47th minute of the first episode, of the 3 hour TV series.
Truly Asia truly Headache now 😦
LikeLike
With all these claming stuff, I wonder whether the Malaysian government is having an identity crisis?
LikeLike
identity crisis? um as far as i know bahasa indonesia is actually bahasa melayu. and of course we do have american language, australian language, canadian language instead of american english, australian english, canadian english. so instead of indonesian bahasa melayu, brunei bahasa melayu, singaporean bahasa melayu, of course the indonesian government does not have any identity crisis by calling bahasa melayu as bahasa indonesia…
i wonder who started these claiming childish issues in the first place? huhu
am i talking american language? lol crap, cheers man 🙂
LikeLike
Many of the “Malays” in Malaysia (not Malingsial as one Indonesian said) are of Indonesian stock: Javanese (like Khir Toyo, the Menteri Besar of Selangor), Minangkabau, Banjar, etc. By this, it is humanly natural for the “Malays” of Malaysia to have the same culture (dance, song, food, language) as Indonesia. By the way, politically, in Malaysia, anyone who believes in Islam, practices the “Malay” culture and speak Bahasa Melayu is a “Melayu”. That’s why in Malaysia you can see a Malay that is “rupa Jawa” or “bermata sepet” or “berkulit hitam”, or even “orang bule” (or Mat Saleh as we say in Malaysia)
So, if I may suggest, why don’t we do this to avoid the stealing allegations: anything remotely Indonesian Malaysia should return them back to Indonesia (good and, warts and all):
(1) Return all Indonesians (in stages of course so that Indonesia will not be overwhelmed with their citizens without work; we are helping Indonesia to cope with any violent “unjuk rasa”) both the legal and illegal kind back to Indonesia; the Indonesians have been complaining so much of ill-treatment. We should also reimburse what is due to the Indonesian workers
(2) Khir Toyo and his family since his ancestors are from Java. By the way, I will also need to pack by bags; my family is from Bukit Tinggi, Sumatera.
(3) all sinetron/films that are now shown on Malaysian TV/Cinema since they are Indonesians, lest we will be labeled thieves of Indonesian Culture
(4) Do not play all Indonesian songs (no more Samson, Padi, Gigi, Ruth Sahanaya – sad as these songs are good), lest we will be labeled stealing from Indonesian culture
(5) Ensure that we do not bring back or steal Indonesian culture like “pungutan liar” or “pungli”, korupsi, etc. We have got advance local culture in this area already
Enough said.
MY preceding illustration may be a bit far fetch, but the more we think about it the stupid we look. We are from the same stock. Definitely when we ‘moved’ to Malaysia, we bring our culture along. So why the fuss.
LikeLike
To moving grass. You are really taking it quite “extreme”. Nobody is really asking anyone to go anywhere other than where people feel most at home. As cliche as it sounds, “Home is where the heart is” really rings true. All people are hoping for, is to see the Malaysian Government admitting to the fact that they migrated from Indonesia. It is indeed extremely sad to see how the Malaysian Government sees itself as superior to its Ancestry (most of it anyway). And that is why derogative slurs like “Indon” and so on exist.
I was with my client, when we went to a Shipyard in Tanjong Sepat about 2 weeks ago, when one comment was passed by my client. He said, and I quote, ” These horrible Indons keep staring at my sister…” He was refering to the Indonesian labor workers at the dock. Not realising that he himself was of Javanese descent. Thus implicating himself as an “Indon” . Why the double standard?
Back to moving Grass, You mentioned that you are from Bukit Tinggi. Does that make you a Minagkabau? I heard that there is an old Palace Ground somehwere in the vicinity. Am planning on taking my film crew there for the filming of the documentary. How rugged is the terrain? I was also told that we had to fly in to Padang before proceeding there for about 2-3hrs by road. Please advise….
LikeLike
To address Kamarul. The Bahasa Melayu you speak of is a collection of languages. As mentioned before 15% of Bahasa Meayu is Portuguese (almari, Bomba, bola and so on) about 20% is Dutch and the rest is Sanskrit, Arab, Tamil, Hindi and so on so forth. The newest words are all English modifications (komputer, infrastruktur, korupsi) and so on so forth.
About 3 years ago, I was really startled while speaking to the Museum Director at the Bugis Museum in Kukup, Johore. He said, and I quote “How can there be a race when there is no language?” He himself of Bugis descent, told me about the Bugis, residing on the Celebes (Sulawesi) was of mixed descent of the Arab marauding pirates and the Mongolian refugees. These Arabic pirates managed to reach Peking to plunder the rich Chinese ships from almost 1,200years ago. Apparently one of Cheng Ho’s missions was to capture the Mongolian refugees.
These stories and more were what led me to really start my research on the histories of South East Asia. Your history is really really mesmerizing!!
LikeLike
michael chick,
did you mean istana pagaruyung? You are few months too late, the place is burned down a few months ago. Although Istana pagaruyung is actually a remake, you can find the location of the old palaces near istana pagaruyung location.
I hope you can understand bahasa indonesia well,
http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istano_Basa
LikeLike
@mike: im questioning on the same basis man, as do the malaysian government has the balls to admit that the malays are from where it is now known as indonesia. we malaysian do realized our ancestors, please dont mind our stupid government.
ive told ya b4 that the concept of ketuanan melayu is not popular among the malay gen ppl. u can just ask any malay where theyre from, im sure they wont hesitate to tell ya. we do know it, admit it, regardless of our government policy…
but um in this bahasa indonesia issue, is it wise to rebadge a language into a national name? if it is so, why dont we have american language, canadian language? The history is bahasa indonesia originated from bahasa melayu, somebody told us its due to the egalitarian status of malays in indonesia back then, although malays are just minority there.
my point is…forget our stupid governments. do the indonesians have the balls to admit that its supposed to be bahasa melayu rather than bahasa indonesia? if they dont, now this is a real denial state…denial of history maybe?
cheers man 🙂
LikeLike
kamarul,
as far as you know, when did Indonesia as an independent country exist? from 1945 right? But back in 1928, before we have any indonesian Government, there was a youth conference from all over the places under the dutch colonialization in hindia belanda. there are 3 points made in that conference. Please read about it yourself. If you think bahasa melayu and bahasa indonesia is all the same, I am sure you will have no problem reading it.
http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumpah_Pemuda
in my personal opinion, since melayu is originated from sumatera. I don’t see any reason why we can’t use the language and make it into bahasa indonesia. It s after all, one of our (many) heritage. or did you think the melayu ethnic comes from semenanjung malaka?
LikeLike
@triedtobehonest: so by any means a language can be rebadge easily? bahasa indonesia is not originated from bahasa melayu meh? why didnt we have bahasa singapura, bahasa brunei? american language, canadian language?
my point is rebadging any language is principally wrong. politicallly u may say its okay, but principally its wrong. language is a language, it can never be so misled by any political means. in this bahasa indonesia case, it seemed so misled by political will.
the language is still bahasa melayu regardless of how much influence it had gained that pursued its evolutions. the basic principle of the language stayed the same, regardless how many vocabulary enrichment it had received. rebadging a language into a new language is totally misleading, its a form of denial that the language persists due to its bahasa melayu identity, a rebadging try to delete its origination identity lah man…
cheers 🙂
LikeLike
I don’t know what the problem with kamarul to say thing like : “do the indonesians have the balls to admit that its supposed to be bahasa melayu rather than bahasa indonesia? if they dont, now this is a real denial state…denial of history maybe?”
In fact, Indonesians have recognized Melayu as part of their language. What I don’t understand now, which Bahasa Melayu he means we have to admit. Which history we have denied? Ah… this Kamarul…
So far that I can understand, Bahasa Indonesia was found to define a new language that can be used by the whole Indonesians. In Indonesia, we have numbers of different languages used by numbers of different groups of people. For this reason, Indonesians need one language that can be used among them to communicate with each other, called Bahasa Indonesia. So… is it a bit clear?
Maybe Bahasa Melayu should change their name into Bahasa Indonesia and melted with Indonesians accent, so that the Malaysians could escape from their funny Malays dialect. 😛
LikeLike
um abit more…of course melayu is from sumatera, we migrated to malay peninsular through malacca. but can we call melayu as indonesians coz we originated from where is know known as indonesia? NO, y? becoz now not all of us are indonesians, most of us are malaysians lah. to say all melayu are malaysians also incorrect coz got some melayu in indonesia…
my end point is…this ethnicity, ethnic identity, language can never be rebadged into a nation’s identity. its bahasa melayu, it can never be changed. the fact that it received alot of vocab richness from other parts of indonesia ONLY grants it to be called bahasa melayu indonesia. (eg american english language). the language still the same, but the locality may sway lah man… 🙂
LikeLike
kamarul,
I guess we should call it: dari sabang sampai merauke plus foreign language. 😉
Ah, your logic is still confusing me. Sorry, but difficult to understand.
“language can never be rebadged into a nation’s identity. its bahasa melayu, it can never be changed.”
we are human race, we should have control of what we have created and create… Malaysia is a country, Indonesia too. Malaysia chooses Malays as ur main language, Indonesia thinks differently.
Our ancestors created Indonesia as nation, not ethnic. Our ancestors created Bahasa Indonesia for our nation, not for ethnic. Maybe in the future our children will identify Indonesia as a new ethnic.
Hmm… my question then: when ethnicity is defined? After or before…?
LikeLike
@Ally: bahasa indonesia can only be a new language if it carries a new main principle of the language, a new structure, a new language basis, the subjects and predicates, a new way of organizing the words…
why now it is not bahasa indonesia, its actually bahasa melayu? for the simple reason, it carries the same principle as bahasa melayu. bahasa indonesia now is not a new language coz it is not only borrows alot of words from bahasa melayu but more importantly it uses the same basis and principle as bahasa melayu, thus it cant be called as a new language…
mike said bahasa melayu borrows much of it words from Portuguese , and why its a whole new language is simply becoz it uses DIFFERENT basis and principle as compared to the Portuguese… far before the Portuguese came to malacca, the language system of bahasa melayu had existed, as so it is called the vocab enrichness of the language to absorb new words…
receiving new words into the language does not grant us the right to rebadge it into a new language as it carries the same principle and basis as the originated language…thus rebadging into a new language is hilarious and totally misleading…get the point?
thats why if u talk bahasa indonesia, most of those who understand bahasa melayu at least know the structural basis of the language thus understanding it. i know bahasa melayu, but if i hear any Portuguese, im sure i wont understand it, coz its totally on DIFFERENT basis…
LikeLike
@Kamarul: Bahasa Indonesia bermula dari Bahasa Melayu Riau … Orang Indonesia yang berasal dari etnik Melayu yang ada di Sumatra dan Kalimantan juga mendukung penggunaan Bhs Indonesia sebagai Bhs Persatuan pada waktu Sumpah Pemuda 28 Oktober 1928 (Fyi.. populasi etnik melalyu di Indonesia jauh jauh lebih besar daripada etnik melayu di Malaysia)…. Walaupun demikian, Kami tetap juga menghargai keberadaan Bhs Melayu sebagai Bhs Etnik Melayu, seperti juga kami menghargai keberadaan Bhs Jawa, Sunda, Minangkabau, Batak, Aceh dsbnya …
Jadi penggunaan Bhs Indonesia adalah Keputusan Politik yang diambil oleh pendiri-pendiri negara kami (bukan hanya oleh Sukarno – Hatta) dalam perjuangannya membentuk negara Indonesia yang bersatu … Jadi tidak ada hubungannya sama sekali dengan negara Malaysia …
Kami di Indonesia tidak pernah dan tidak akan pernah mempermasalahkan jika jka negara anda ingin menggunakan Bhs Melayu ataupun bahasa lain seperti Arab, Inggris, Cina ataupun Bhs Angkasa sebagai bahasa resmi di negara anda .. .. Sama dengan ketidak-pedulian kami atas definisi Melayu yang saat ini anda gunakan…. That is your Business….
So, mulai saat ini lebih baik kita lupakan saja konsep Serumpun sebab Indonesia adalah Indonesia dan Malaysia adalah Malaysia …. Biarlah sejarah yang membuktikan apakah Bhs Indonesia akan lebih dominan daripada Bhs Melayu/Malaysia atau sebaliknya ……
Lebih baik kita urus urusan kita masing-masing dengan cara kita masing-masing …. OKE..
LikeLike
Kamarul,
using the same analogy. Somewhere in this blog you admit that Rasa sayange originated from maluku, yet you insist that the tittle of the song is rasa sayang hey, and refusing to acknowledge that the real tittle is rasa sayange.
“receiving new words into the language does not grant us the right to rebadge it into a new language as it carries the same principle and basis as the originated language…thus rebadging into a new language is hilarious and totally misleading…get the point?”
look who’s talking….
LikeLike
@kamarul:
you said:
oh cr4p…. sorry, why theres no delete button? :p
@kamarul:
you said:
errr… y dont you ask singaporeans, americans, people of brunei and canadians?
Indonesians chose another way.
you said:
Not really, who defined the rule of “rebadging” anyway?
If the largest malay(your definition of malay, of course) populations decided to call themselves indonesians, and call their language bahasa indonesia, what say you?
heck someday they might call it “bahasa kamarul” if they want too.
And we always acknowledge the language as a derivative of malay language lah… its written in elementary school text books, if im not mistaken.
LikeLike
@triedtobehonest: uiks um on the Rasa Sayang Hey issue, we actually donot know which version is the original, which is copy, hence the issue of rebadging should be discussed later after we found out whos the real troublemaker…
@Bonar: well thanks very very much, u have proven my statement:-
1) bahasa indonesia actually existed on a political basis, political will. so principally it said to be totally misleading. a new language should be born based upon its reliability to stand alone as a separate entity ie by using different basis and structural principle from its originated language (bahasa melayu). who said so? no need to find out who, just use ur frontal part of the brain to think
2) bahasa indonesia is a rebadging of bahasa melayu. by putting additional words ie vocab enrichment into bahasa melayu then arise bahasa indonesia regardless of it using the same platform, linguistic principle as bahasa melayu…FYI rebadging has no rule, rebadging itself is being done by ppl who dont have any other idea 🙂
Failure of bahasa indonesia to distant itself from using the same platform as bahasa melayu really proved to us that it cannot be a new language, which it will never be if it continues to do so. So in gasping to find a common ground for its own identity, a dirty rebadging really make it worse.
Gasping for identity? did i heard that from somewhere? Cheers 🙂
LikeLike
kamarul,
u said: “a new language should be born based upon its reliability to stand alone as a separate entity ie by using different basis and structural principle from its originated language (bahasa melayu).”
To make things easier,
IMO many languages even have similar basic structure: subject + predicate (verb) + object. What make differences?
LikeLike
@Ally: good question here…um first lets compare english and bahasa melayu. they both have subject and predicate, object is classified as subject. the arrangements of these subjects and predicates are different in both languages, thus they are different languages…
chili(subject) + sauce(predicate)= chili sauce
sos(predicate) + cili(subject)= sos cili
bahasa indonesia?
the simplest example is english, although we have american english, british english, canadian english etc but its all is one language: english. what differs is dialects ie choices of words and pronunciation. hotdogs vs sausages, elevator vs lifts. y its the same language? becoz it uses the same system…present tense, past tense, i, you, me, them, -ing etc
now do bahasa melayu and bahasa indonesia are the same language? as far as i know, yes, correct me if im wrong…the same principle being used…Kata Ganti Nama Diri -dia, kamu, kami etc. huh letme explain in malay lah
selain itu, penggunaan sistem imbuhan juga sama, memberi, melatih, menaikkan etc, kata gandaan…all im saying here are the language systems, the basic language priciples-both bahasa melayu and bahasa indonesia are the same. since bahasa indonesia was originated from bahasa melayu, it can never be another different language as it practises the same basic language principles…
if uguys go and look for bahasa indonesia in wikipedia, it states there that it is “loghat bahasa melayu” translated to “dialect of bahasa melayu”. A dialect stays as a dialect, it can never be another language regardless of choice of words and pronunciation ie sedar vs sadar, kekasih vs pacar, kes vs kasus etc…
as complementing toward american english as a dialect of english, bahasa indonesia also is a dialect of bahasa melayu. thus the name bahasa indonesia shouldnot be it in the first place, it should be bahasa melayu indonesia (explaining the dialect nature of it, not a new language)
LikeLike
kamarul,
i know that you are trying to compare this case with english version. But you need to see also other languages… They r similar but has different names.
Hmmm, these english people…
Anyway, I don’t see any crucial issue to change the name of Bahasa Indonesia into Bahasa Melayu Indonesia as u suggested.
LikeLike
@Ally: hehe of course theres no crucial issue to change it, im not forcing uguys to accept it but at least please see through my point. Bahasa indonesia is not a new language, its more fitted to be a dialect status of bahasa melayu. Im suggesting this name becoz ppl may confuse with bahasa indonesia by thinking that its anew language after all… 🙂
LikeLike
Aw man… thanx, triedtobehonest, I just read that it was burned down TWICE!!! does anyone know what the original riots were about? What issues prompted the fiery outbreak?
And BTW, The book titled “Sejarah Melayu” was NOT its original title. It was called (something like) “Asal-Usul Raja-Raja” or something like that. This fully explains the Fairy Tale beginning of 3angels coming over Gunung Gantang and such. Also explains the mythical bits like, my great-grandfather ruled the country for 370years, my grandfather, 170 and so on so forth. We are fully aware that Royalty had to maintain some mysticism (aka blatant lies) so that their subjects would revere them and keep them as overlords, and fight their dirty wars for them; hence the “superiority” over the common rakyat 😦
To Kamarul, just pop open any Portuguese Dictionary. For ease, pick up a picture version. You WILL recognise almost every picture. It was quite shocking when I first picked it up. When I mentioned that it borrowed (permanently) from the Portuguese, it was only the words. Not the structure. The structural design is still very similar to the Chinese Lego-Type structure where words are added on to form tenses, and such.
I told you your history is exhilarating !!!
Truly Asia has hope…
LikeLike
I remember when i was in junior high, my bahasa indonesia teacher dictate a lesson about “asal-usul kata” (sorry, I dunno the english words)that bahasa indonesia have absord many foreign and local language into the vocabulary. Like gelas comes from english glass, sarapan comes from javanese nyarap and so on. Didn’t bahasa melayu teacher in malaysia taught the same thing?
kamarul, can you give me a hard proof that rasa sayange has been sung in malaysia longer that in indonesia? because during the dutch colonialization, they make a movie with the song as the background sound as a tourism commercial. Is the british government have something like that?
LikeLike
asal-usul kata= origins of speech
If Bahasa Indonesia is anything like Bahasa Melayu, then 15% of it is Portuguese words, 20% is Dutch, and the rest is a mix of Sanskrit, Arabic, Hindi, Tamil and so on so forth. However, I do know that there are a distinct number of words which are different from Indonesian and Malaysian “Malay”. Like I said. Pick up a picture-based Portuguese dictionary and see it for yourself. I had to learn Portuguese for my Post-Graduate Thesis, examining the writings of the Suma Oriental recounting the final days of Malacca where it was chaotic and void of any law prior to the Portuguese takeover. This was in response in fact, to the attack made by the local Sultan on the Portuguese ship in jealousy of their direct contact to the Molukas Islands.
LikeLike
And thanks for the heads-up on the burnt-down palace. Do you know what events prompted the riots?
LikeLike
Sorry MC, I’ve been trying to contact a close friend of mine from Bukit Tinggi but he’s not returning my calls yet. He used to be a journalist too, I am sure he know more about Minangkabau culture and history. I’ll let you know ASAP.
LikeLike
The palace was first burned in the Padri War, probably by the supporters of Padri Movement. At the time the royalty were rather unpopular. The second burning was an accident, I guess.
You can read more information about Pagaruyung Palace here, http://www.padangmedia.com/news/136/ARTICLE/1236/2007-07-27.html. Hope this helps.
LikeLike
MC,
If you need further assistance on minangkabau issue, email my friend at datuakrajoangek@yahoo.com. He can give you the reference of Minangkabau history and culture.
LikeLike
excellent. I am trying to trace the “legendary” matriarchal system said to be still intact somewhere near Bukit Tinggi. I thought that the old Palace might serve as a nice “backdrop” for the story to unfold itself. Am currently trying to work with the Indonesian Embassy in Singapore to confirm the filming permits and all 🙂
Thanks for the heads-up. I’ll also be bringing a native Batak with me to help guide us through all the way from Padang till Medan. I think it’ll be quite a trip. Any advice on that route?
LikeLike
Thanks again for the heads-up. I will definitely contact your friend. You can send me an e-mail at michael@discovermalaysia.biz to give me his name. And oh-yes, you may also visit http://www.discovermalaysia.biz to view and download the full trailer. I’m currently working on another documentary entitled “The right to Live” The website http://www.righttolivefoundation.com is still being constructed right now. just bear with us. The 2 hr program will air over Indonesian National TV. We are planning to film in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, and the Philippines. It is done in aid of victims of Violence towards Women and Children. This program will air global 🙂
You can understand why I am desperately trying to trace women in power…
Thanks guys for your help
LikeLike
@kamarul:
Think you need to take a serious deep breath.. 🙂 Relax and cool off dahling, you are way too excited.
@MC and all:
Just bumped into this girl’s blog. She’s learning both Portuguese and Dutch and she listed out some of the very first words she found in each of the language that are heavily used in Bahasa Indonesia. So, you are right, MC! 🙂 Note the way she uses terminology Bahasa Indonesia, not Bahasa Melayu. It is how it is amongst Indonesians, I guess.
http://nadiafebina.com/blog/2007/5/22/originally-indonesian-not.html
Btw, MC.. good luck with your program. Too bad I curently don’t live in Indonesia to enjoy your work over the TV. Believe it will be easily available from the net anyway? Looking forward! 🙂
–Indonesia, The Heart of Asia–
LikeLike
@kamarul:
you said:
I agree. The political will was proclaimed first on 1928.
Up until now the largest malay populations quite agree with that political will. After all, who decides the fate of a language beside the people who speak it?
As long as indonesian dont ask malaysian to change the name too, i dont think it is a problem at all. we just headed to different directions.
If im not mistaken (or probably it was a fictitious fact in a movie), this had been done before, on the formation of qin dynasty, cmiiw, and probably on many others like scandinavian languages (pardon me for liking the game baldur’s gate so much that i know this information)
I disagree.
Nobody requires that. And i think there are many language have stand alone as separate entities albeit being mutually intelligible and came from same origin.
Of course there are exceptions, new constructed languages such as klingon or esperanto or interlingua, may be stand on theirselves.
again, who decide which by what specifications?
I miself prefer to call bahasa indonesia as a dialect of malay language, coz of my birth origin.
I can speak in many different malay dialects, but when i have to speak in different regions, i use indonesian as standard (i consider it as something like standard-mandarin)
Uh oh… that is taunting. 🙂 let me taunt you back:
That statement is proofless, and irrelevantly constructed. And apparently the empirical evidences have shown us otherwise 🙂 Culturally, we do have more ideas.
Not really, bahasa indonesia may be intelligible to you (as you have shown us), malaysian malay may or may be not easily understood by us. From my empirical experiences, it wasnt easily understood by most of us. Our language will be mutually unintelligible, given enough time.
We are actually a bit confused, if not shocked, if somebody tells us that we have problem defining our own identity. Coz we dont.
We use a new name, several times we standardised the language and changed it here and there, and we dont stop to invent new things from it. we moved on.
why we should follow english anyway? given enough time and cultural separation, malaysian malay and bahasa indonesia will differ greatly in several centuries.
Ahhh… this is about “status” afterall.
Okay, if you think that malay language is superior in status, i dont mind. but to change the name? NEVER, and superiority complex wont change that.
For malaysia wanting to forbid indonesia from using bahasa indonesia is just incomprehensible to me,
coz after all, if the largest malay population (your definition of malay) decided to call their language as bahasa indonesia, who are you to say otherwise?
LikeLike
my comment is waiting for moderation.
LikeLike
Just curious… can you tell me what is this sentence talk about without looking any dictionary?
Tanteku yang berprofesi dosen dikampus ui itu, duduk di halte menunggu angkot. Rambutnya berketombe, deh. Aku tergelak mengamati bahu bajunya dari warnet seberang.
LikeLike
I watch RCTI this morning and there is a news about Government of Malaysia stated that they never claimed Tarian Barongan as part of Malaysian heritage. Effective today, Malaysia Government banned the show of this dance at the official ceremony in the country. This was said by Minister Pelancongan Malaysia.
However the news also higlighted the artists of tarian barongan in Pahang (?), 5 groups established there, they keep the dance as a bound with their ancestors in Ponorogo, they even put the words ‘Reyok’ at the lion’s mask. And now as the ban officially announced they were worried that their culture brought from Indonesia – means the bound with their ancestor- will be dissappeared gradually.
LikeLike
@pretty
I think the Indonesian government and the people doesn’t really mind if Reog Ponorogo is played by the local group in Malaysia. What we really couldn’t stand is the idea of renaming reog, claiming it as their original culture, and start using it as their tourism ad without crediting where the culture is from originally.
Like the bagpipe player in America who admit that bagpipe comes from scotland, even if there’s large scot community in America. I never heard anyone from america claiming it as their original culture.
@Bonar
Can they ask for help from fellow indonesian? It’s not exactly the dictionary 🙂
LikeLike
@Bonar: here my translation, although its not full but due to the same language structure being used. Seseorg sedang menunggu sesuatu, sambil duduk, di kampus. Rambutnya berkelemumur (dandruff). Ko tergelak sambil melihat bajunya. Now does this got similar meaning? its not perfect due to nonmalay words u used, but um i can understand right?
its not about the words, its about the structure. same structure means same language. different words and pronunciation means different dialects. thus bahasa indonesia is a dialect of bahasa melayu, thus calling it a separate new language is incorrect…
@triedtobehonest: didnt we have this conversation on bagpipes already?
cultures, heritage and language belong to the people. it can NEVER be restricted to certain nation or geopolitical belongings lah. thinking it to be like this is sooo damn wrong and absurd…
LikeLike
This kamarul memang menggemaskan….
What is the meaning of new?
Words and pronunciation are part of language. Language is not just structure, or what you mean by grammar. I don’t know exactly Malays grammar, so can’t continue argue on it.
IMO, Dialect also contains grammar etc.
You are funny anyway.
LikeLike
Unspun, my comment is still awaiting moderation, can you please help me?
LikeLike
@Ally: i dont know ar if this simple things u cant understand, perhaps im being so funny afterall…
A new language= a new system, a new structure
A dialect= the same structure but different choice of words, pronunciation
Dialects came from the same, one language, thus a dialect is not a new language…
An ice-cream, whether u put on nuts, jello, corn etc, change the taste from vanilla into chocolate, strawberry, banana or any u like on earth….at the end of the day its still ice-cream, or u just cant simply put nasi padang etc on ice-cream and call it a new indonesia dessert lah
if this simple analogy, u cant even understand, then i have to rest my case
LikeLike
not really kamarul, its only true to your own definition(s). If your definition is the most correct, then all languages must have evolved that way. Therefore if we witness another language evolved in the way similar to bahasa indonesia, your statement will be proven false.
Theres a saying: “a language is a dialect with army and navy”,
it’s a very important concept to understand that there is nobody can force their idea of language identity to other group if that other group doesnt want to, unless of course, theyre tauntingly iseng 🙂
i wish my other comment will be approved soon.
LikeLike
Kamarul: Spanish and Italian, Afrikaans and Dutch, Hindi and Urdu, Malay and Indonesian. These are a few examples of what started out as one language but then diverged along the way and thus became a different, but still similar, and recognized internationally, language. My point is: Indonesian and Malay is perhaps similar, but NOT the same language.
LikeLike
“jang dinamakan ‘Bahasa Indonesia’ jaitoe bahasa Melajoe jang soenggoehpoen pokoknja berasal dari ‘Melajoe Riaoe’, akan tetapi jang soedah ditambah, dioebah ataoe dikoerangi menoeroet keperloean zaman dan alam baharoe, hingga bahasa itoe laloe moedah dipakai oleh rakjat di seloeroeh Indonesia; pembaharoean bahasa Melajoe hingga menjadi bahasa Indonesia itoe haroes dilakoekan oleh kaoem ahli jang beralam baharoe, ialah alam kebangsaan Indonesia”
(Ki Hajar Dewantara; Kongres Bahasa Indonesia I tahun 1939 di Solo, Jawa Tengah)
LikeLike
Ja ampoen… Kowe Oerang mampoe bitjara setjara koena ja! Saiia soenggoeh soenggoeh saloet!!!
*frantically kowtowing The spirit of freedom
LikeLike
Kamoe orang tida ada salah……….
Yang banjak salah itoe awrang awrang Walanda Kompani dan itoe Goroe goroe Indjil, mareka tidak bisah bitjara dalam itoe anak negerij poenya bitjara djadinya itoe awrang awrang Walanda Kompani dan Goroe goroe Indjil menggoenaken bahasa Melajoe kepada itoe anak negerij.
Semoea negerij jang Kompani dan Goroe goroe Indjil pergi bisah bitjara dalem itoe bahasa Melayoe.
Dinegerij jang Goroe goroe Indjil tida pergi di banjak tempat di Djawa marika tida taoe itoe bahasa Melajoe. DiMadoera di Parijangan sampe harij ini awrang toewa toewa tjoema bisa bitjara Madoera dan Soenda sadja. Tapij di Maloekoe dan Papoea sampej di oendjoeng goeneoeng marijka tahoe itoe bahasa Malayoe.
Tahoen 1928 Jong Ambon tra tahoe bahasa Djawa dan Jong Java tra taoe bahasa Maloekoe, soepaja marijka bisah bitjara satoe dan lain, marijke goenaken itoe bahasa Melayoe ataw MALEIJS ontoek menjatoeken bahasa.
LikeLike