Should Unspun or shouldn’t Unspun?


One of this blog’s readers, Michael Chick, has posted a most fascinating and probably controversial commentary on the Malayness of Malays here. Unspun doesn’t necessarily agree with everything he says but think that it has some provocative and interesting thoughts, to the point where Unspun thinks it may be a good idea to start a new posting on it.

But Unspun has also seen enough about racial chauvinism to know what sort of allegations will arise if Unspun went ahead without consulting anyone.

So Unspun will base his decision on whether to post Michael’s comments as a new posting by itself on what the readers say. That way those readers who are interested in opening up a new thread of discussion based on Michael’s posting can do so; while those who find it distasteful or anti-Malay can stay away. So should Unspun or shouldn’t Unspun?

76 thoughts on “Should Unspun or shouldn’t Unspun?

  1. This sounds disturbingly like another attempt by the White Man to promote miscegenation of the pure Malay Race. (If he’s not a White Man, he’s thinking like one).

    Hey, White Man ! Just because the blood of your own race has become tainted and impure, there’s no need to try to drag us back into the primeval swamp with you. Some leakage at the edges, may unfortunately, be inevitable due to the disgusting schemes of some Caucasians. (See ‘More Sex We’re British’ in the Jakarta Post Sunday Edition about two weeks ago).

    Friend, the Malay race is the greatest on the planet. Now we have finally united and cast of the yoke (pun intended — eggs mostly white, but a bit yellow), of the White Man. I’m not a racist: I’m just saying we Malays have the right to preserve our racial purity.

    Our heroes like Hang Tuah, Diponegoro, Mahatir Mohamad, make Whitey quiver in his ragged flip-flop sandals and soil his unchanged-underwear. So let’s hear what you have to say ‘Mr. Chick,’ if only to knock it down in just another battle for The Truth.

    Achmad will Tell It Like It Is !

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  2. Yes, Bayi, Hang Tuah — one of the greatest Malay heroes ever to have lived. The White Man doesn’t recognise true heroes because he doesn’t know what it means to compete on a level-playing field, always begging for priveliges, WTO this and IMF that. Friend, we are living in the first decade of the Millenium of the Melayus. Embrace it !

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  3. Not to mention Hang Well — that’s me. And Hang-ed by his own devices — the Bule in the 21st century. Oh, my friend, you really must embrace the Malay revolution. It’s the way of the future.

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  4. Better than a self-effacing strumpet. Friend, I only speak The Truth. That is Achmad’s task, mission, and purpose in life. I use not Powerpoint presentations, or Ipods, only as closest to the ancient quill and ink I can: the keyboard. Friend, this is the Malay century. Please, Friend, get used to it. Join the revolution. Merdeka ! Merdeka ! Merdeka ! To our Batak friends, I add: ‘Horasbah!’

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  5. Only if you have a very, very strange sense of humour, or you’re one of those people that sit on late night public transport, staring into space for hours, until suddenly letting out peals of high-pitched giggling laughter. Maybe you are such a person, Bayi. The stirring battle cries of the poet Achmad seem to have little effect on you. Just for the record: I don’t joke and I don’t slander, which Islam says is crueller than murder. Thank, Friend.

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  6. Greetings. This is Michael Chick. Unlike others who hide behind “anonymous synonyms” I came clear with my real name. The post which I put up was not a figment of my imagination but the end result of 3 years extensive research. As such, the facts presented are clear-cut, straightforward and unassuming. Perhaps you would all like to chat with any anthropologist at UM before sending-off any flaming sparks in my direction again. These Professors should be as Malaysian as any of you.

    The subject matter is fact-based. To Bayi, “Contesting Malayness” is available at Kinokuniya at Takashimaya 4th floor, Orchard road. at a cost of S$32. It is also available at National University of Singapore. Why? coz it’s their textbook. Let me repeat; “Contesting Malayness” is an NUS textbook, published by NUS Press, written by Professor Tony Milner.

    To Achmad Sudarsono, calling the Malays a “race” is akin to calling the Hokkiens or the Javanese a “race”. Please do not confuse the term “orang” with “Bangsa”. What do I mean? The term orang is used by malays to describe Orang Bugis, Orang Acheh, Orang Laut, Orand India, Orang Melayu. And here is where the confusion was…. Orang Melayu merely refers to the residents of Kampung Melayu near Jambi, near Palembang. Please use Google Earth to find its exact location.

    Unless you can say that all “Orang melayu” are descendants of that village, you simply cannot be called orang Melayu. In fact the name “Malay” has been traced to Lembah Bujang, where the Indian traders used to call the locals “Malai” (in Tamil) to describe the locals. The locals were animistic pagans at that time, and readily adopted Hindu practices and Indian customs. “Raja” and “Sultan” are Indian titles. The adat bersanding with the pelamin are of Indian origin. Even the “gifts-bearing” walk by the groom has its Indian roots. Please attend an Indian Wedding before flaming me again. Or have a chat with Prof Nik Hassan who is in charge of the Lembah Bujang archaeological excavations.

    Malaya, was therefore a derivitive from Himalaya. “Sejarah Melayu” therefore was describing the Kampong Melayu origins. But here is where from pages 1-3 tell you that Kampong Melayu are descendants of Iskandar Zulkarnain (Alexander the Great) through the bloodline of a West Indian Princess. This came from Sejarah Melayu. This book is cheap. You can buy it at the University Malaya Bookstore for a mere RM35. It is published by MBRAS (Malaysian Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society). Its patron member is Tun Hanif (ex-IGP)

    Please speak with Datuk Prof Zuraina Majid, who excavated “Perak Man”. She will tell you that Perak Man is a descendant of the Australo-Melanesian stock…. African.

    National Museum of the Phillipines will verify that they came from Taiwan. And National University of Indonesia will confirm that they came from the Phillipines.

    Nik Aziz (PAS leader from Kelantan) will tell you that his grandfather came from Champa. To all Kelantanese, please explain the newly changed name of a Kampong near Bachok (close to the Pengkalan Chepa airport) to “Kampung Champa” to our friends here.

    Please also visit Museum Negara to see the exhibits on the “Dong Song” brass drums and Gua Cha in Kelantan near Gua Musang to see the Hoabinhian Caves. Dong Song and Hoabinh are in Indochina. And therefore, the locals are descendants from that region. The entire Northern States also have their roots from the Pattani Kingdom; which today we call Tahiland. In fact, please visit the Kelantan WWII museum to see the article on how Perlis, Kedah, Kelantan and Terengganu was part of Thailand from 1943-1945. Then walk over to the Kelantan State Museum to see the exhibit on Gua Cha to read their explainations of the Hoabinhian Cultures of Early Kelantan settlers.

    Malaysian Archaeologists call the early settlers Proto Malay. And the current settlers Deutero Malay. The scientific term is actually, Australo Melanesian (African) and Austranesian (Chinese, or Mongoloid). This is a DNA and bone structure classification. Even the term Negrito transalates from Spanish to mean “mini Negro”.

    I hope that I’ve made myself comprehensible enough. Feel free to ask any further questions to help clear the air. The “Malays” are NOT a race. I’m so sorry that you are only hearing this now. The rest of the Academic World has known it for years.

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    1. Hello,

      Err.. a little confused here. You mean that it is not possible for Malays to practice Hinduism in the past? You mean that to practice Hinduism, one must be an Indian? Or you mean that before all Malays embrace Islam, there were no history of Malays? If suddenly all Americans embrace Hinduism this year, does it mean their travel to the moon are no longer their’s to be boasting? I hope you dont really mean Hindu=Tamil=India.

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    2. Seriouly, pardon my English! Im trying hard =)

      One more thing, there is Bahasa Melayu which I believe among the largest spoken language on earth. Is it just a language that belong to no race?

      Latin language can be traced its origin down to Italian Peninsular. French language from the Franks. English by origin from Angles ethnic who traveled to Briton from Germany. Russian language spoken by Caucausian, Viking & Norsemen. It is very odd if the Malay language do not represent any race, is it invented by alien who visited during ancient time to make trades?

      Some threw a thought that the term Malay was given by the British during their invasion. Then, what was these Malay language spoken people called before that? They cant be that stupid to form many great nations just to give an honor to British to give them a label; Malay.

      It is possible if the British did what the Spain did to Philiphines (heritage destroyed, kings killed and forced to embrace Christianity, luckily theres still some unknown race leftover who fought with keris & sundang to protect their way of life, now is called Sulu or Moro people), but it didnt happen to that extend here. There is no Philiphine race to begin with because it originate from a Spain King’s name, Philip II who ruled from 1556 to 1598. What was these Philiphines people called just before that? They were no name also until Philip II gave them a name? Come on, they must be called something.

      Indonesian now is a new race too, Bangsa Indonesia =) Bangsa Malaysia somemore =). Different NEW races, but speak same language. What language? Malay language.. which come first, the language or the race?

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  7. To address Hang Tuah, Hang Jebat, Hang Lekir, Hang Kasturi, Hang Lekir and Hang Li Poh…. They were all related by the family name of “Hang”. Please visit their graves in Malacca. Their graves are clear-cut Hindu. This was during the “Great Malacca Empire” when Parameswara was supposed to have converted to Islam. Why are “Legendary Defenders of the States’ ” graves Hindu? They are not having the spiral headstones, or the Batu Acheh type headstones. Instead, they are solid concrete blocks with traingular holes for incence and oil-lamp burning.

    Hang Tuah’s grave (Kampong Keling) is another “conspiracy”. Please read the inscriptions on the side, “… they found a large stone marking a grave, and therefore it must be Hang Tuah..”. This grave was merely designed to be a tourist destination. Note that there are no names engraved anywhere. Just a big non-descript stone marking that a human body lies underneath it. Lastly, why is A muslim buried in Kampong Keling? keling meaning Indian?

    The subsequent question is why is Hang Tuah removed from current schoolhistory textbooks?

    One of two suggestions come to mind. He was pure fiction (please read Hikayat Hang Tuah before flaming me again), or as the Bugis Museum Curator in Johor will insist, that Hang Tuah was Chinese. So were the rest of his “blood brothers”. They were all Chinese; and related to Hang Li Poh.

    Let me pose a simple question to you, Why is it, that when you visit Malacca to see the great historical Malaysian City/ State, you see the Portugese “A-Famosa” gateway, or the Red Dutch buildings like Christchurch, or even St. Paul’s Church on St. Paul’s Hill? Where is the evidence of “The Great Malaccan Empire”?

    Let me help you with that answer. Published by Dewan Bahasa Dan Pustaka in a publication called “Melayu Journal” in 2005. “…. we had to look for an icon by which the Malays would be proud of..” Since Majapahit, Acheh, Lembah Bujang (Langkasuka) were either Hindu, on Indonesian soil, or both, Malacca was the only location left. The great Parameswara is, by the way buried on Fort Canning Hill downtown Singapore, for those of you who want to visit it. They call it the “Keramat” immediately behind the National Musuem of Singapore.

    Please enlighten me by showing me ONE single piece of evidence of “The Great Malaccan Empire”. Even Dewan Bahasa couldn’t. Perhaps any one of you could…… Evidence, and not mere gut-feeling please….

    Also, please consult Prof Khoo Khay Khim before flaming me again; Thank you.

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    1. First of all, name never meant to represent race. Muhammad could be an Arab, a Malay, an Indian. There are thousands Europeans & Americans by that name too. Munsyi Abdullah is not even a Malay but granted a grand title of Father of Malay Literacy (despite his lot of lies while working for the British), and stupid Malays afterwards feel so proud and put into it school textbook =) Now you can see hints of inferior complex that sicken the mind of Malays by majority for decades.

      I would like to ask if you have a big famous Chinese name during monarchy period with surname of Hang. I see Hang Seng Bank in google, others are Hang Tuah and his brothers.

      Kenny Chee agreed Hang is also name for Malays. He also mentioned that Hang Li Po’s exact name is just Li Po. `Hang’ in the front given by Sultan Mansur Shah.

      “Where is the evidence of “The Great Malaccan Empire”?”

      Yeah. Where is it.. Thousands of the documents I believed sank along the burning ship of The Fame, at least told to be sank as many old Malay documents are found in British Muzeums and across Europe. One of them is Undang-undang Kedah, we only managed to buy microfilm of it because the original written in Malay Jawi is to expensive to buy =). Luckily we still have our faith, our Kings and Sultans, our culture.. not like the Australian Aborigines, the Philiphines & the Red Indians, the Sumerians, the Accadians? But still, I wish evidence of the Great Malaccan Empire survived like the Chinese Great Wall does. But if you is OK with Malay Hindus (not Indian), excavations are doing great digging and discoveries in Merbok Kedah. I heard they found ancient metal industry there.

      “Lastly, why is A muslim buried in Kampong Keling? keling meaning Indian?”

      Why are millions of Chinese buried in Tanah Melayu? Same goes to every race that died on foreign land. Btw, it is very possible also that he was buried there long before Kampong Keling come to existence, if he even buried there I mean.

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  8. Michael,

    Yeah, yeah, blahdy, blah, blah. Ever heard of ‘short and sweet’. Obviously not. It’s a common academic debating tactic: bore your audience into a drooling stupor. ‘Chick’ is a appropriate given the girly-girly nature of your points.

    But as a true Malay, I feel you are disrespecting your seniors, including Dr. Mahatir and Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew. Both of these leaders have implemented race-based policies for the benefit of their citizens, including Malays. I think its disrespectful to suggest they are wrong.

    Also, ‘Tahiland’ must be a Freudian slip, from ‘Tahi’, or poo-poo. You are implying that Thailand is a pooey nation because of the problems in the South.

    Somebody must have tampered with Hang Tuah’s grave.

    I remain your well-hang Friend, Achmad.

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  9. I’m so sorry to have hurt your feelings by asking you to read the long version. Here’s the short and sweet version which you requested.

    “The Malays are not a race because they consist of Caucasoid, Africanoid, Mongoloid adn Indian origins. They are at best, a linguistic based classification. All other race classifications in the world are Genetic, hereditary and DNA based”

    Hope I’ve made you happy 🙂

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  10. The person(s) responsible for tampering with Hang Tuah’s grave must have also tampered with Hang Jebat’s, Hang Kasturi, and Hang Lekir’s grave as well. They are all identical. Verified by Museum Negara. please tell Taib that his department is wrong.

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  11. There was no disrespect intended for our former Mahatir, or LKY. They were merely following the existing Britsh Colonial Masters’ classification. The Malays were just given that name out of a lack of a real classification in 1819. That was way before DNA verification existed. It was an unfortunate labelling mistake. What they classified in 1819 as the “malays” was only a minority, so they felt that the malays were too few to threaten the “Great British Empire”.

    Those classifications existed when they all said that Malaysians live in trees. We all know this to be untrue; and are therefore correcting such glaring old mistakes.

    The Malays are unfortunately still not a race.

    Please read the short and sweet version since you find it uncomfortable to read the long version.

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  12. If you really thought about it, why should I call the Siamese “shitty”? after all, they form part of the ancestry of todays’ “Malay” classification?

    And what goes on in South Thailand is unfortunate. It is costing lives, and those lives are human, regardless of which religion they belong to.

    Race-Based policies have out-lived their usefullness and should be revised or abolished. It is merely feeding the elite in office. The poor Kampong man never receieved a single cent of the “Peruntukan Bumiputera”. If you know of anyone with an average income below the poverty line who did receive it, please make it known. We’d like to interview him.

    Thank You

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  13. In response to LKY, there are no Race-based policies in Singapore, and yet, the “Malays” here far out-class those found in Malaysia. They form part of the only First-World Country in South East Asia.

    What you call malays here are all well educated, hold good paying jobs and earn more than triple of any average malay in Malaysia. (dollar-for dollar comparisons) If you convert, then, its triple 2.3 exchange rate.

    And they all did it successfully without any special rights. You will never see a “malay” in Singapore work as a security guard, or wash cars etc. They hold white collar jobs that pay well. Please learn from your First World neighbour.

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  14. Mr. Chick,

    The notion that there are no race-based policies in Singapore, is a pure, unadulterated, un-transformed into Newater, crock. It starts at the airport when you have to fill in ‘race’ on the immigration card. There are thousands of tiny classifications in the constant dealings with the State. The bleedingly obvious is the crude attempt to step up breeding rates amongst Singaporean Chinese for fear the Malays are out-breeding them, otherwise known as the ‘Social Development Unit.’ Face it, pal, Singapore’s one of the most racist societies on the planet.

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  15. Bravo Micheal Chick!Keep up the good work.I can’t agree with you more and I support you 101%!
    If the Malays in Indonesia are called Indonesian,the Malays in Phippine philippinos it is certainly more appropriate that the Malays in Malaysia admit that they are Malaysians for the sake of unity and interest of the country.

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  16. Senwha Chen,

    Unfortunately, such race-baiting tactics makes the ISA necessary. It’s inherent in the name Malay = Malaysia.

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  17. Achmad Sudarsono is a perfect example that the problem in Malaysia lies with the Malays.

    This country is blatantly and openly racist. Let’s look in the mirror first before attempting to point out the faults of our neighbours in any issue ok?

    Achmad’s single para here says it all about his mentality: “Friend, the Malay race is the greatest on the planet.”

    Oh please, GROW UP and grow out of your insecurity. Is it not enough to have tons of benefits heaped on the Malay race, not because any individual deserves it, but solely because of your “race”? You further need to trumpet that the Malay race is errr, what, the greatest? For what achievements? And on what basis? But of course, these things don’t really matter to you.

    Kindly bear in mind that the “Malays” are not even the first on the land; that right belongs to the 18 indigenous groups of people we label as Orang Asli, whose rights have been completely subdued to allow “Malays” the likes of you to flourish.

    I have Malay friends who want to earn their own way up the ladder in their industries. They don’t wish to be lumped with the likes of Achmad who believe that “the greatest race on the planet” should get a free passage by virtue of their birth. They have something, called, dignity.

    And geez…. please, the fact that you could be as petty as to point out Michael Chick’s misspelling of “Thailand” just underlines your idiotic way of thinking. Anyone who uses a keyboard know the mis-typing of “a” and “h” is COMMON. Why don’t you rebutt Chick’s researched and detailed reply with an equally researched and detailed reply instead of nitpicking like a kid?

    And you mentioned, “Our heroes like Hang Tuah, Diponegoro, Mahatir Mohamad…”, may I be petty and note that you misspelled Dr M’s name? It’s MahatHir, with a H please. Gee… what total disrespect to our former leader!!

    As for Achmad’s insistence that he “is not racist”, yet trumpeting the “Malay race is the greatest on the planet” and calling others “Whitey”…. I rest my case. Please, spare us your pathetic ramblings and work to achieve SOMETHING in your life. At the end of the day, we are received equally by God in this life or the afterlife. Does it matter what “race” we are?? GET A LIFE MAN.

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  18. I read with great interest Michael’s well-researched entries. His points are all well presented in an impartial, sensible and factual-based manner. Well done, Michael. I do hope to hear more from you.

    I agree with Rainbow totally. Achmad, I’m sorry but you absolutely and utterly insulted yourself. We are all educated people in a globalised world. You puny and racist mentality will only bring to your own downfall. However, Malaysia is filled to the brim with people like Achmad. This is indeed a heartachingly sad situation. On the eve of Malaysia’s 50th birthday, the country seems to be in a more and more hopeless situation than ever.

    Racial politics…such utter pettiness and short-sightedness. Ultimately, Malaysia will collapse because of this very twisted ideology.

    I cannot even begin to express my sorrow…

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  19. I feel so special that you guys have come to “defend”. I just came back from Cambodia doing additional research at Angkor Watt.

    Our team is considering the filming of “Discover Cambodia” immediately after we finish “Discover Singapore”. We are still in the process of finalizing the locations and just started filming “Discover Singapore” only this CNY.

    On the other hand the filming of “Discover Malaysia” took over 2 years and that is primarily where I got a lot of the firsthand information. Please visit http://www.discovermalaysia.biz to download and view the trailer. It does highlight the origins of “malays” to a certain degree and so does all the rest of the 5hr episodes.

    Perhap I should produce “Contesting Malayness” in video form and make it as a free download on YouTube? Anyone wants to watch this? Perhaps I should also dub it into BM so that all may understand its content? Free internet downloads are not subject to FINAS censorship.

    Just a quick note to point out to a comment made by Rainbow. Malaysia has 264 indegenious tribes in total. They come from both east and west Malaysia. Not merely 18 as per what the Orang Asli Museum in Gombak announces.

    Just FYI, Negrito, is a “group name” consisting of many sub-ethnicities. Same goes for Senoi. Within the main group names comes others like the Semai, Semak Beri, Jakun, Jah Hut, Mah Meri and so on. It was my initial studies of these peoples which led me to a subsequent detailed study of the origins of the malays in Malaysia.

    What I found, is shocking you as much as it did me especially in the early stages. The only difference being that all information came incrementally, and slowly till the final deduction and was subsequently confirmed by my chance meeting with the NUS professors during the initial research in Singapore.

    I swear I kept scratching my head when I first deduced that the malays were not a race. The constitutional malay does not fit into any dictionary definition, as they define it as “… lineage defined by physical traits; ie hair type, skin color…” Roget’s Theasauru uses definitions such as “Parentage”, “Paternal”, “Maternal”, “Lineage”, “Heriditary” and so on. In NONE of the dictionary definitions is religion mentioned.

    Our Contitution defines “malay” as “… anyone who dresses like a malay, speaks malay, practises malay customs and is Muslim.”

    By that definition anyone from anywhere can be a malay, as our minister in Sabah just pointed out. (please check his statements on the star online). This is not how a race is defined. o while the rest of the races are anthropologically defined, the malays are constitutionally defined.

    If we now analyse the whole issue, the malays are no longer the majority. Coz they do not exist as a race. They are actually, Javanese, Vietnamese, Sumatrans, Bugis, Siamese, Phillipinos, Cambodians, Ibans, Kadazans, Muruts, Bajaus, and so on so forth.

    So what? That makes the single largest race in Malaysia is…….. (someone please fill in that blank for me-ya?)

    Truly Asia Boleh

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  20. Sorry, guys — Rainbow, Darrel. It’s this simple: we Malays recognise some people will always try to attack us. You both are obviously over-Westernised and possibly have come under the influence of certain groups with influence in financial circles discussed by Dr. Mahathir. (Very petty to pick on spelling, Rainbow). If the Whiteys are so good — how come they don’t have their own country? (Or they did, South Africa, but they lost it). As for achievement, my cousin in Kuala Lumpur get a Bumi Putra loan to import Khotbah CDs from Indonesia. But once again, patriotic Malays, resist all attempts to discredit our great race !

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  21. p.s. — if you were a true Malay, you’d change your name to Darul, the way it should be spelt to honor “Darul Islam”.

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  22. Hey Achmad, Please explain how and why is Malay the greatest race on earth (forget for a moment that the malay does not exist as a race) Please state some achievements which are better than others, or possibly the best in the world.

    Maybe we can agree with you instead of hearing your empty arguments with no substinence or proof….

    Thank You

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  23. Michael,

    On the question of race: if you have to ask, you will never know. Some notable achievements, though, are a willingness to put the White Man in his place, a project championed by the former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamed.

    Also, we resist attempts to discredit us in the way of quasi-scientific arguments disputing our biological heritage. Finally, there’s our strong work ethic, self-reliance and unwillingness to depend on government hand-outs. These are just a few points.

    I’m soon you will soon be lost for words.

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  24. Achmad, better stop even while you’re behind.

    Race’s a sensitive thing to bring upon but while I believe that what MC wrote is fact-based, it doesn’t mean that he looks down on Malays or is anti-Malay.

    Anyway, don’t you believe that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve?

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  25. Michael,

    I sincerely think that you are wasting your time and breath in replying to our poet’s antics. I, for one, am waiting for the next article which has similar if not better academic research put into it. As a Malay, I am proud of my mixed heritage and am quite excited at the prospect of finding out my heritage to be of a ‘truly asian’ background.

    Thanks for your informative write-up and keep up the good work!

    Amir Hamzah Amha
    (A true Malay)

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  26. The bumiputra status was more to help develop the “malays” after Malaysia gained her independence.

    The malays (Let just consider them the locals as compared to the Indians, Chinese, Caucasian and other obvious “foreigners” at that time) were considered backward in a county where they were the majority. (One can refer to Dr.M’s “The Malay Dilemma” for further clarification)

    How these benefits are used or abused today does not seem to be part of Michael’s write-up. He is just very plainly stating fact. (Which did impress me, I must add.)

    It’s about time (50 years of independence) that we accept who we are and are open to knowledge. (No matter where it comes from.)

    Concepts of “Superior races” have caused enough problems in the world over the course of time so let’s please not go there.

    It’s time that Malaysians truly got together, regardless of race or religion and just helped those who need help.

    If we can do that, no one needs to tell us but we’ll know how superior we are.

    Once again, good job Michael.

    Nanda Kumar
    (A “non-bumiputra and happy to be Malaysian” Malaysian)

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  27. Sorry guys, was just trying to wind you up. Can’t believe you fell for it.

    But seriously — the idea of “race” has been discredited in scientific, archeological and anthropological circles for a long time.

    Strip off that one variable — melanin content — and it’s hard from a DNA sample to tell where someone’s from. Seeing as humans have been migrating for hundreds of thousands of years, makes sense we’re all mixtures.

    In many ways, our good friend Michael was just stating the obvious, albeit with a few more footnotes.

    Even Lee Kuan Yew’s starting to sound more reasonable — saying that scientific evidence suggests gay people are born that way. Can a statement on race be far behind ?

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  28. Thank you, Michael, for posting your research which is circulating the globe via email. I am so glad somebody finally said it so clearly. The myth of the “Malay,” and especially “bumiputera,” is so glaringly obvious, but in Malaysia people are so used to taking B.S. from the government that they just put up with it. Please do post a video on youtube.

    Incidentally, Dr. Mahathir is a “pure Malay” in the sense that he’s half Indian.

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  29. MC: wow, people actually read my rantings???
    To address Achmad again,

    “…Also, we resist attempts to discredit us in the way of quasi-scientific arguments disputing our biological heritage. …”
    MC: For anyone to react what I wrote as trying to discredit anyone is reflective of an inferiority complex manifeting itself. All the books I mentioned show conclusive proof that no race can exist as an agregation of other races. They are still people, and definitely members of the human race, but the malays are a wrongly classified race. The word malay hould be “removed” from race classifications. Simply because there is no such thing. As i mentioned before, by article 160 (2)’s definition, it has been unfortunately relegated to a religious club membership. Not a race.

    “…I am so glad somebody finally said it so clearly. The myth of the “Malay,” and especially “bumiputera,” is so glaringly obvious, but in Malaysia people are so used to taking B.S. from the government that they just put up with it… ”
    MC: This all came about when I was doing research for “Discover Malaysia” tv series. It took me 3 years to complete. As I was moving around, lots of bits and pieces simply did not add up. As I wanted to make sure that the Series is world-class, both in entertainment form as well as factual, I simply had to get all the details straight, and correct the4 very first time. (We call it credibility)

    “…Please do post a video on youtube…”
    MC: You mean “contesting Malayness” ? I’d have to get Prof Barnhard’s consent first. I hope to bump into him again next week, while I’m filming “Discover Singapore”. I did however, make this “history section” as my opening intro for “Discover Malaysia”. When I was invited as the key speaker at the last Kiwanis meeting, all eyes were starry eyed coz they saw it, and couldn’t believe that all the facts were so blatantly staring at them in the face all these years…

    Truly Asia Boleh

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  30. “…Strip off that one variable — melanin content — and it’s hard from a DNA sample to tell where someone’s from. …”
    MC:Actually. no. It is the DNA which tell us which hair color we have, which eye color, skin color and bone structure. And for obvious thoroughbreds, it is easy to trace the mitochondrial factors which govern these physical attributes. DNA actually is able to confirm or dispute the “race” issue very eaily. In the old days, before the discovery of this tracking method, it was completely based on visual. Therefore, all dictionaries define “race” that way; by way of physical attributes. As religion is NOT a physical attribute, and since “malays” are the only ones who go by its own definition, they still cannot be classified correctly as a race. Why don’t any of you have a chat with our University Malaya Anthropologists. They are after all, professional, you know…..

    MC: And back to Achmad, you still haven’t provided the black-and-white which supports your claim that the “malay race is the greatest on earth…” Are you willing to retract that statement then, seeing that you lack the evidence to support the claim which you made?

    Like

  31. To Michael, only one word for you. Good research regarding the race issue. Hope you can put every research on the race issue in you tube.

    Thank you.

    Like

  32. I didn’t say ‘race’ — I said, ‘where someone’s from.’ But I still put it to you that, the variables you mentioned are still minor against the rest of the biological indicators a scientist might look at when measuring a tissue sample. On the ‘Malay being the greatest race,’ — sorry, I was just winding you up. As it says on Wikipedia, YHBT – or, ‘you have been trolled…’

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  33. Hey Achmad,
    I’ve seen several forum where you’ve degenerated the discussion into farce, diving into infantile name calling and racial harassment.

    Though in hind sight I must agree now with some of those who are enlightened that ‘you’re too entertaining to be ignored’ and see that you’re just trolling.

    Good to see that there’s a serious and rational side to you, esp. with that apology there.

    Like

  34. Halo Achmad: Irrespective to what race we belong to we are created by God. Let it be red, white, black, yellow, chokalat and ‘rojak’ colour, the liquid beneath our skin colour is still red.

    In the eye of our creator, we are all HIS children. No one is more superior than HIM. Let us prepare our soul to go back to HIM for our eternal lives with HIM.

    Like

  35. Tom: What’s God or the argument that we’re all created by God got to do with the price of fish or the issue at hand? Argument by diversion.

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  36. Um, Tom, thanks for the theology lesson, Martin Luther King would be proud. But I don’t know what your little speech has to do with the issue. Christianity (if you’re a Christian), hasn’t come out squeaky clean on the racism issue. It hasn’t come out dirty, either. I’d just say its failed to be a cure for bigotry. Amen, Bro.

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  37. Now that MC has pointed out that the Malay race does not exist, does Malaysia cease to exist too? No! Malaysia is a nation, our Nation. Let us now not talk about being a Malay, a Chinese, an Indian or other race but rather let us live together as Malaysians.
    For those who now cannot call themselves Malays as a race, don’t get disappointed. Think of yourselves as Malaysians and descendants of great seafarers, great explorers, great warriors, great businessman and a host of other greatness that integrated into a society in Malaysia.
    Bumiputra status and the NEP? So what is the big deal? Many nations in the world have their own favoured citizens. So let them have it. What we are not happy is that the rich Bumiputras are getting richer by abusing their status and taking advantage of the NEP and I am sure most non-bumis and other poor bumis would agree with me.
    If our leaders are sincere, they should foster Malaysia as a nation where every citizen is a Malaysian irrespective of their race or origin. Allow the deserving bumiputras have their privileges. Allow the NEP to carry on but like what our Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said, do some changing and fine tune the implementation then I think we can be one of the greatest nation if not the greatest. Syabas.

    WKLoh

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  38. WK: Good points and we should not forget that the ostensible rationale for the New Economic Policy was to address economic disparity, not racial disparity.

    If you’re poor it does not matter a damn what race you are. The NEP was meant to help the poor, of which the majority then happened to be of non-Chinese or Indian extraction. There are a lot of Malaysian Chinese and Indians who remain poor though.

    The problem, however, is that there is now too much to loose for those who claim to be Malay in Malaysia. No Umno politicians would survive to finish his nasi lemak the moment he or she advocated an end to the preferential treatment.

    All very sad as, like you, Unspun thinks Malaysia is blessed with so many good things and people with which it can aspire to a greater destiny than the one it is living out now.

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  39. Much agree with you Unspun, Malaysia is really blessed with many a good things. Now, if its citizens would voice out more, question more and strive to have a more transparent government, then we can be better caretakers of this country and its resources. We’re the deciding factors.

    Frankly, I’d agree with the NEP (or its on-living legacy) IF the there are more actions taken to help the poor, eg. maintain the housing discount for those earning less. Question is, it’s the rich that are screaming that the poor still needs help while the rich skimp off the fats and meat leaving bones to the poor.

    I’ve always wondered, why can’t people see the bigger picture; even better, see the eternal picture that we’re all returning to dust one day, and compared with eternity, our lives are but a blink of an eye. All our treasures can’t be taken with us. What would matter is the good we’ve done here while on earth.

    It’s ironic, it’ll always be the same if life is viewed from afar. The rich (those corrupted ones) enjoy, they don’t take care of their kids, their kids get the wealth, they squander it, family’s back to poverty or middle class, whereas the poor work hard, go middle class and hopefully they get rich the right way and instill the proper values into their children. If not, the paragraph repeats itself.

    I wonder what would have been different if Gerakan and DAP members would have been more restrained in the 1969. (No doubt it takes 2 hands to clap but they “won” much). Anyway, we’ve used the same method of Race-based political groups for far too long. Rest assured, continuing it with no major changes in those parties would doom them and country. We need 3 good friends (Muruku, Wantan, and NasiLemak) to form/combine into 1 party with the sole vision “little boys and gals of different races can holds hands to play, and drink from the same bottle”. That’s the future.

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  40. I have this to say (btw i’m using this “anonymous synonym” due to obivous reasons mentioned below):

    – No Achmad. Malay is not the best race in the planet. Get real man.

    – Utmost respect to MC for your zealousness and tireless effort in research to contest the “malayness”. For whatever reason this article is written, only god and MC knows. It creates nothing but hatred and angry reaction from certain quarters of the sensitive Malays.

    – Reason for the “anonymous synonym”: I think this article/book is stupid and a waste of time and money. In fact I’m feeling stupid writing all this. Because MC, while you’re at it, why not contest “Chineseness” or “Indianness”. Surely some other races might have migrated there i.e. China or India to create a chinese or indian community. And from there, you might wanna do some more research on where did those ppl come from.

    But wait, before you waste more of your time on that, let me save you all the trouble in finding the answer. They all came from Adam and Eve. But of course that if you’re a religious person. Then I might have to follow the Darwin theory: they all evolved from this little tadpole-like creature in a lake somewhere in a continent we now know as America.

    😛

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  41. Serenade, MC is not responding anymore. He knows these bunch of people are good writers and debate their points with tact and skill. I have to chicken out when somebody do not agree with us about Genesis. Amen

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  42. Sorry to disappoint Tom. I have been away since the rainforet festival and was on reccee trips into the Borneo rainforest. Us filmmakers have limited time staying connected on the internet while carrying out either jungle filming trips or site reccee. Sorry to disappoint you all with my brief silence.

    “…Utmost respect to MC for your zealousness and tireless effort in research to contest the “malayness”. For whatever reason this article is written, only god and MC knows. It creates nothing but hatred and angry reaction from certain quarters of the sensitive Malays….”
    MC: It was brought on by themselves for Article 160(2) states that:
    anyone who speaks Malay, dresses like a Malay, habitually practises Malay customs and is Muslim is a Malay.

    MC: I did not create Article 160 (2). This simply makes them a Constitutional “race” while the rest of the world is an Anthropologically defined race.

    “…Because MC, while you’re at it, why not contest “Chineseness” or “Indianness”. Surely some other races might have migrated there i.e. China or India to create a chinese or indian community. And from there, you might wanna do some more research on where did those ppl come from….”
    MC: Please please please do NOT mix up nationality with race. I have to say this a million times. You may be a Chinese National, but not of the Chinese race. You may be an Indian National, but NOT of the Indian race. Just like there is NO American race, but American Citizens. This concept is so simple.

    MC: Put into local context, there is NO BANGSA MELAYU. Do not confuse this with kaum, puak, rumpun, among other terms. Please check this with your favourite dictionary before continuing the thread.

    MC: Final word. There is nothing I love more than intellectual discussion. If it strays from that to childish bickering, then I’m outta there in a flash. So I’m really glad I’m in an arena of “people who are good writers and debate their points with tact and skill.” Bravo Tom Goh… Let’s keep this blog as intellectual as we can.

    Like

  43. Dear seretideserenade:

    Just like to let you know that I’m a Malaysian Chinese, where Malaysian National I am one but of Chinese origin(or race) and people call us Bangsa Cina in Malaysian(Malayu) language.

    Many Malaysian Chinese would agree that this term was to refer to the collective of people originated from any of those regions, ethnicities, tribes or even races in China – then known as Tang / Song / Yuan / Ming / Qing amongst some of the Civilised Nation known to the ancient global world and ZhongHuaRenMinGongHeGuo or ZhongGuo. Why Tibetans are not considered Chinese? Because they were a Civilised Nation themselves until the communist conquered it recently.

    However, the root word of Cina/Chinese could have been: (sorry, no references here).
    1) Qin – the first unified Chinese dynasty;
    2) China – high quality porcelain works from Jingdezhen, Jiangxi Province;
    3) Cina – a rude term used by Japanese to refer to ZhongGuo Nationals.

    What I’m trying to say here is that Chinese is a word – that doesn’t even exist in any ancient Chinese dictionary – used by outsiders to call anyone from China and the racial prefix for the people here is actually Sino–. Therefore it is quite erroneous to refer us as a “Chinese Race”. Nevertheless, it is traditionally acceptable to put a person race based on his/hers country of origin – hence we have Hans, Tangs, and Mings in Malaysia where all referred to the dynasties when they were from, but technically it’s not totally accurate.

    I think Indian would have the same ordeal and even Malaysian too.

    So why the Malay race issue?
    If you refer Malays as to Malaysian than everyone with a Malaysia Citizenship should be of Malay race. (doesn’t sounds right)
    If you refer it with religion practices, then all the Muslim in the world should be of Malay race. (doesn’t sounds right either)
    If you refer it with cultural practices, then you should visit all the 13 states in the countries to see if they actually practices the same tradition – as far as I know my Javanese, Bugis, Minangkabau and Champa friends – they are not. (again it’s not right too)

    The best I could agree of for Malays is just a collective term for Native South East Asian Muslims. (just my personal opinion, please don’t hate me)

    As we may not be practising the same religion (regardless how similar they seems to be) I may not agree that we are from Adam & Eves for many Chinese believes Nuwa created colonies of people from the earth of Yellow River. (No offence, just trying to offer some religion tolerance)

    Technically, I stick to Sino for Chinese race, and others may with theirs prefixes.
    For my root, I’m of Hans tribe with ancestors migrated to Malaya from Guangxi & Fujian provinces.
    For paper record, I’m of Chinese origin.
    For globalisation identification, I’m a Malaysian National.
    For visitors from outer space, I’m just an Earthling, you can call me HUMAN RACE.

    p/s: MC had done a great job and you may challange him every facts he mentioned and him producing at least a couple of professional references in return.

    Like

  44. A PLEA

    Couldn’t we just call ourselves BANGSA MALAYSIA for the sake of a better TANAH AIR to live in?
    Be it if you are Malays, Chinese, Indians or Dayaks or speaking different mother tongues in Melayu, Arabic, Javanese, Sumatran, Achehnese, Tamil, Malayalam, Punjabs, Baba, Jakuns, Ibans, Cantonese, Hakka, Hokkien etc…

    Please accept your race based on the country, after all you are born & raised with the resources of this nation although it needs many more improvement and may had disappointed you so many times.

    I think the reason why MC brought up the discussion is because it’s time for us to think and work together as one RACE and NATION to build a better place for everyone here to live.
    If we don’t help to change and improve the country ourselves, who will? The nation needs fresh blood and talent but where did all these people go? If Tunku and his men had left the Malaya Federation because it’s such a chaotic place then, we wouldn’t even have independent.

    WE MIXED THE BEST OF EVERYONE
    That’s why
    MALAYSIA is TRULY ASIA

    Like

  45. Hello Vic.Kyle.Ellanne,
    It’s been a while since we’ve seen any comments on this thread. And the Chinese theory is certainly very illuminating. While it is probable true of the Qin (pronounced chin), It has been found from the Lisbon Archives that there are indeed records in reference to the Qin. However, since modern “ha-yu-pin-yin” was just started, these 14th century maps depict it as Qin, and spell it as X-I-N” This is spelled the Portuguese way.

    “The best I could agree of for Malays is just a collective term for Native South East Asian Muslims. (just my personal opinion, please don’t hate me)”
    MC: Unfortunately I could not agree with you on this. Race is an anthropological definition, not a political or religious one. Please check your favourite definition from any dictionary or thesaurus. They will define it as differentiated by distinct physical traits. NEVER by a religion.

    The Malaysians today cannot seem to distinct between nationality and race. They may have some correlation, but they do not dilieanate race. Becuase by your definition, you will arrive at the Singapore race. What then would you be talking about? There is also no such thing as the American Race. Or the British race. This race-by-country is not applicable.

    Definitions have to stand the test of comparative and distinctivity and repeatability.

    I like the “Malayo-Polynesian” definition. It is the most encompassing definition. It includes all the copper-skinned peoples from Indonesia till Easter Island. It does not take religion into account. Therefore, it can include the Hindu Malays of Bali, and the Catholic Malays in Sulawesi, or the Animistic Pagan Malays of the Polynesians.

    However, the Malaysian definition chooses to exclude all the above groups, and refuse the Balinese Malays by their definition.

    As a researcher, we make reference to published articles, and refuse (usually) internet information unless they are substantiated by published journals and articles by a reputable organization; ie universities, and institutions of higher learning.

    The Malays are no more than a sub-ethnicity of China; much like the Hokkiens, teoChews, or Hakkas.

    To illustrate how Malaysia has added confusion, Mahathir, who is Indian, Badawi who is part Hainanese and Pakistani, his former wife, who is Japanese, his present wife, who is Portuguese, Nik Aziz, who is Vietnamese and so on, be considered of the Malay race? people can change their nationality. But never their race. You may have mixed parentage, but never the ability to change their race.

    With the new definition of what we call the constitutional Malay, the word ceases to have any meaning outside of this Third World Country. Malaysians have mixed up the difference between Orang and Bangsa; hence the confusion. But to correct this would mean removing the “bumiputra status” classifications, which onloy the corrupt politicians are benefitting from. So……..

    Even the Indonesians reject this “Malay” definition.

    Finally, you are right. This is all but to prove beyond doubt of the Truly Asia descent of Malaysian citizens. And that for Malaysia to climb out of it’s Third World mentality and economic standing, much has to be done. But to do this, an equal playing field needs to be established first.

    Truly Asia Boleh

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  46. @MC: As always, very interesting and educational insights. Someone once told me that if you look at the elite in Umno they are predominantly non-Malay of origin.

    In fact this person, the wife of a high-level Umno official told me that the elites or mixed bloods often look down on what they perceive as pure Malays, much as the racist elements in Chinese or Indian communities might.

    Do you know if this is true or anyone who has conducted any research on this?

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  47. Why Hate Me? (^_^)

    Dear MC: I refer the word Malays just as a term to describe a collection of these people – not race, best maybe sub-culture, not even ethnic. That’s just in my point of view.

    The only race I agree will be Human Race.
    My apologies for the race-by-country, is not a definition.

    I’m not a scientist, but I think I have read enough to know that scientifically there’s no such thing as Chinese Race or Malay Race or any other race.

    Race itself has many definitions in different context of studies. Biologist, Anthropologist, Geologist, Linguist, Religion Scholars, Social Science Researcher, Marketer, Economist, Government, Politicians etc… all define it slightly differently. It’s up to how you want to use it.

    Race-by-country pledge is more of patriotic aspect. I mean look at the big picture. Who cares where were you from, you come to stay within this border, you will help to defense this border, and you should be proud of it. Who cares if you are black, brown, yellow or white, you don’t protect your home, you’ll suffer too.

    We are all just MALAYSIAN! After 50yrs of independence, it’s sad that we still need to divide ourselves into so many “races”. (But USA had the same, and worst, issue too)

    I hope that MC’s piece of research could make a wake up call for everyone to be united. It’s has a strong message that we are all of no different therefore all should have equal treatment, especially the government!!

    So we don’t have a fair system now, will you be the one to change it? (OK MC, I know you are trying, bravo!)

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  48. For unspun’s query, first of all, how u define non-Malay origin and pure Malays?

    In psychology point of view – it’s is in human nature that individuals look down on anyone that’s different from him especially when he thinks the other is less able than him in some way.

    I know many of my English speaking (Malay) friends mixed little with their non-English speaking counterparts.

    Even my Malay friends in Singapore have bad impression on Malays in Malaysia. (Actually I feel the whole nation does that to us)

    I guess it’s just human nature, not so much of any Malayness issue. This is more obvious when it involves social status, hierarchy in the organisation, profession, academic level, skin colour, cultural indifferences and nationality.

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  49. Vic.Kyle.Ellanne, I LOVE YOU!!!!! This is the first uninitiated comment that has hit the nail on the head totally unprompted!!!! Reread your post below…

    “…I hope that MC’s piece of research could make a wake up call for everyone to be united. It’s has a strong message that we are all of no different therefore all should have equal treatment, especially the government!!…”

    It is precisely that which I have been trying to impart. I just kinda told it the way any filmmaker would have. Otherwise, it would have been as dull as the “Equality for all” cries which are heard all over the newspapers and at basically every “ceramah” of the opposition.

    Now, armed with the “Origins of the Malays” one has the proof which is necessary to tell EVERYONE that they shouldn’t walk around and discriminate. Coz the “Truly Asians” are NO DIFFERENT than the the rest. This also kinda destroys the “Ketuanan” issue. No one has been able to answer who the ‘Truly Asians” have Lorship over till today…

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  50. “…Someone once told me that if you look at the elite in Umno they are predominantly non-Malay of origin.

    For unspun’s query, first of all, how u define non-Malay origin and pure Malays?…”
    MC: Alrite, am going to try to answer both questions at once. These will be based on the Malaysian perceived mental definitions and not the anthropological one.

    The so-called “elite” are recent migrants. The ordinary “Truly Asians” have been here for a longer period of time. 75% of all peninsular Truly Asians are Javanese. In Indonesia, they are considered the elite as well. They have been the ruling class of the Indonesian Archipelago (geographical definition) for a long time. Only recently have they crossed over to the peninsular. And the majority(bulk) of the Javanese only arrived in this last century.

    Parameswara only arrived with 30men and his wife. The entire Malaccan Empire pnly had an approximate 40,000 inhabitants. This is the ENTIRE Malaccan Empire. Not Malacca the city. For those who have been to Malacca city, one would immediately notice that it has absolutely no way of sustaining more than 10,000 population. Viewed from the lack of agricultural standpoint.

    “…In fact this person, the wife of a high-level Umno official told me that the elites or mixed bloods often look down on what they perceive as pure Malays, much as the racist elements in Chinese or Indian communities might….”
    MC: These elitists consider themselves educated. (Ironically, they deny the other Malays of educational opportunities by keeping all the scholarships for themselves) As I always asked before. Why should the Datuk’s and Tan Sri’s childern be offered scholarships. They are not the needy ones. I’ve also mentioned many times that the cost for the interior decorations of these elites are more than enough to cover the expenses for sending an entire village for overseas education. I’ve travelled the length and breadth of Malaysia, visiting EVRY SINGLE kampong even in the most remote interior of Malaysia. They are simply NOT benefitting from the NEP> The NEP is merely enjoyed by less than the 0.1% of the Malaysian Polulation. This would be the cronies and nepotismic Parliamentary circle.

    Do you know if this is true or anyone who has conducted any research on this?

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  51. My Opinion: There is no need to threaten, kill, suicide bombing, ethenic clansing. Just make a diplomatic agreement between goverments. This way they will be happy to see us go and we are happy to leave to the country of our choice. A win win situation just like a lawful divorce.

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  52. Ahmad.

    Did you know from where Batak coming from????
    According to some researcher that they come from Egypt 2500 years ago when PHARAO still King of Egypt. They were JEW actually. It could be recognize from their customs and lineage.
    Did you ever hear it???????

    Thanks

    Like

  53. Some may wish to see it their own way even evidence has been furnished to them. Like the UMNO, even in the face of corruption, they still say that they are clean and doing alot for the nation. They are just raping and pillaging everyone in the country.

    If they still stick to the idea of “Bumiputeras” come first, I’m afraid the country will just sink even deeper into the hole that they have already dugged.

    The political affairs of the country looks more like a circus rather than what it is suppose. It reminds me of when i was in primary school (“sekolah rendah”) where all was innocent and carefree.

    For teh sake of the general population, abolish “bumuputeras”, it only serves to makes those involved even more lazy….

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  54. Good evening. The first step to getting the things you want out of life is this: Decide what you want. Help me! I find sites on the topic: kitchen islands. I found only this – Custom kitchen islands. Com is your local source for hialeah fl airlines airline ticket agencies, including reviews, recommendations and more. Online reservations, airline ticket purchase, electronic tickets, flight search, ticket refunds. Waiting for a reply :rolleyes:, Takeo from Leone.

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