And what do Indonesian women think?

March 21, 2008

Beginning to like Anita’s blog very much for some of the questions she raises. Below is one and asking Indonesian women what they think about the topic of Caucasian vs Indonesian men.

Unspun thinks this is a very welcome development in the Indonesian blogosphere as people ike Anita, Marisa etc are giving Indoneisan women a voice and are taking an active role in shaping perceptions about Indonesian women, in English.

Much better than in the past where bitter white men disappointed with life in Indonesia (and who have nowhere else to go) seemed to be the only ones who were trying to do so. Way to go sisters!

clipped from anitacarmencita.blogspot.com

Caucasian vs. Indonesian Men

read Unspun‘s clipped article, originally from BaliBlog, regarding what (tourist? foreigners? cheap?) men perceive about Javanese girls. At first I didn’t jump into the discussion, since what Baliblog described about Javanese women was beyond degrading and not worthy to entitle my opinions.

But then the discussion was turned into how women (in general, not only Javanese) are treated by men in Indonesia. Two of the participants, Oigal and Rob, pointed out that their wives sometimes are verbally abused by local men. Mostly because those women are seen with bule (Caucasian) men, and therefore are labeled as whores.

Now I want to know your opinions as the other Indonesian female bloggers:

Do you receive different treatments from Indonesian vs. Caucasian men?
Have you been verbally abused by Indonesian men?
Have you been verbally abused by Caucasian men?
If you have a Caucasian partner, did you specifically target the race as your potential other-half? Why?

unspun

51 responses to “And what do Indonesian women think?”

Oigal

March 21, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Unspun,

Mate, I have couple of issues with this, firstly I never used the term “Whore” and would appreciate it if you could change it. Secondly, it was used as an example i am not happy about my family being used as a specific post and the loon and nasty posts it may attract.

thanks

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Rob

March 21, 2008 at 5:42 pm

Unspun,

I am a great believer in free speech and Anita and your good self can write and post whatever you feel you need to in order to make your point. You selectively cut and pasted the Baliblog comments and Anita has followed your lead in this respect with the way she cut and pasted my comments.

Doing this might make a point for you but it loses the necessary context of the whole…but once again your blog your right to post what you want…but in the interests of truth you should correct your error with regard to who has said what. I am happy to take any flak for my comments on this topic and would hope that those comments be directed at me personally and not at my wife or family.

Like power, with free speech comes responsibility…

The term whore was one I used and in fact the actual word is pelacur as it was uttered by an Indonesian in Indonesian. If you go back and read the posts you will see that Oigal has a point, it is not his term!

To suggest that in some way myself or Oigal are anti-Indonesian or label all Indonesians with the same brush is not only unfair it is wrong. In my own defence I don’t think that I said in any of my posts that it was a majority of Indonesians or even that the majority of bules in Indonesia have experienced what I have experienced personally to suggest otherwise is a distortion of what was posted…

I will still be reading your blog as I will still be reading Anita’s…I am a committed life long learner and despite the fact that I disagree with some of the things that you both write it does not mean that I cannot agree with you on other things…As I said I learn something new every day from reading different perspectives on how others view their life experiences…In the big scheme of things that is how we all should live life and reasoned debate about differences and similarities will contribute to the breaking down of stereotypes and bigotory across the board.

Cheers…

PS. If Akismet captures this as spam…I hope that you release it for publication…

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simon

March 22, 2008 at 10:28 pm

Unspun;

Making a statement about “bitter white men disappointed with life in Indonesia (and who have nowhere else to go)” sounds rather vitriolic. Which “bitter white men” are you refering to exactly? Please clarify this.

When you claim that these Indonesian “women are seen with bule (Caucasian) men, and therefore are labeled as whores.”; you are are refering to; specifically the wives of two men (Rob and Oigal). Don’t you think that this is rather too personal and offensive; calling their wives “whores” on your blog?

You now want to know “If you have a Caucasian partner, did you specifically target the race as your potential other-half? Why?” Could it be because they fell in love? Honestly; this is some really awful stuff here.

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unspun

March 22, 2008 at 10:54 pm

@Simon: The bitter white men – if I name them I would be making things personal, which I have tried to avoid so far.

On the “whore” reference. It was from Anita’s blog. I clipped it but didn’t say it, so wrong attribution there.

And if any dumbass is going to live up to their name by calling the clip selective, they’s better understand how Clipmarks works. Of course it is selective if you can only clip a maximum of 1,000 words

Agree tho that things are getting a tad nasty. is this because we’re hearing for the first time from the other side – articulate Indonesian women who’re smarter and more in-your-face than your average bar pickup or the subservient trophy girlfriend?

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simon

March 22, 2008 at 11:39 pm

I am an Englishman living in Indonesia and I like it here. If any expat hated living here; then they would leave? You seem to imply that expats are trapped here…I don’t get this point and perhaps you should write an article about it on your blog to explain.

Guys pick up girls in bars all over the world; what’s the problem with that? Are you married or a monk?

I’m guessing that you have had an unpleasant experience with Western expats in Indonesia.

@Simon: don’t you read English authors like Graham Greene who have lots of expats trapped in far flung corners of the globe, unhappy but not having the wherewithal to get up and go? There are lots of expats trapped in Asia, leading unhappy lives but not daring to take the chance to go home because things are even worse there. In Hong Kong the expat community used to relish using the acronym FILTH to refer to those who Failed in London; Try Hong Kong; in Japan there are the Charisma Men. And its not just Westerners either. Unspun knows of some Asians who are unhappy in Australia but don’t have enough courage to uproot and come back to Asia, for instance.

Sure, guys pick up girls in pubs all the time. Nothing wrong with that, so long as they realize their own sleaziness. The objection comes in when sleazy guys try to pass off themselves as Western Liberal democratic types who think that the world should fawn on thier antics and admire their women as creatures of class.

Married yes, a monk not yet.

Yes, unpleasant experiences with some Western expats; great experiences with other Western expats. What’s your point?

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Rob

March 23, 2008 at 8:32 am

Despite my intention not to enter the fray again. I guess the dumbass reference is to me. This is the way you work Unspun and I can appreciate it for what it is. The bitter man here is not me. I am not bitter and in my posts to date merely relayed personal experiences, which I might add never referred to or made generalizations about a majority of Indonesians.

I understand how clipmarks work in that I understand the limitations in the amounts of words permitted. My point was merely that in a long post you can choose to clip any part you want and the parts you clipped provide a different context to the whole. That’s all and nothing more.

If you were being honest about this whole thing and not reverting to calling people “dumbass” to divert attention from the real issue you might just see my point. Even if it is selective and you are limited in the amount you can clip, you could simply add underneath the clipped part that the clipping is of a much longer post that deals with issue ‘x’!

My guess, and for all I know it may be wrong, there is an agenda at work here and there is deliberate baiting to get heated responses. Unspun, “to each their own”, you have your way and others do things in their own way.

As I said in my earlier post, it is a big bad world and also I hope a democracy, so enjoy your freedom of speech! It seems that this freedom does include the ability to revert to name calling. It is not rocket science that my earlier post referred to clipmarks and your response goes along the lines of, and I quote, “And if any dumbass is going to live up to their name by calling the clip selective, they’s better understand how Clipmarks works. Of course it is selective if you can only clip a maximum of 1,000 words”.

You talk about trying to stay away from the personal but you do not stay away from the generalizations of certain groups of people…”because we’re hearing for the first time from the other side – articulate Indonesian women who’re smarter and more in-your-face than your average bar pickup or the subservient trophy girlfriend?” This would seem to be a rhetorical question as you appear to have already decided that all bar girls and good-looking girlfriends (based on the trophy reference) and not as smart as other Indonesian women! This belittles women in general and Indonesian women in particular.

Not all Indonesians have access to quality education or services and this is even more so for women. These women are placed in situations that may be they choose but I would expect that generally they do not, I am not passing judgment on any women, with regard to their personal circumstances. I have been brought up in a way that I respect all people no matter what their personal circumstances and I try to do this the best I can. My point here is the next nobel peace prize or nobel for medicine or physics could be working in a bar because the opportunity for education does not avail itself!

Am I afraid of serious in-your-face debate with articulate and smart women like Anita, Marisa, or any other women, Indonesian or other? Not at all!

The female perspective is a critical one to any debate, I am not at all for men dictating how women should behave or live the lives. To the contrary, the best judge of this is in fact a women.

The difference between us is where I write about breaking down the stereotypes and the bigotory to move toward a better world, you seem to want to exploit the stereotypes and the bigotory and the stereotypes still litter your posts such as the one pointed out by Simon. Yet, for me it is the labelling of some women as stupid and inarticulate that even as a man I find offensive!

Perhaps the articulate and in-your-face women may wish to respond on this one!

As always have a nice day!

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Rob

March 23, 2008 at 8:33 am

As usual Akismet captured my comments.

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 23, 2008 at 10:27 am

Owch. Getting nasty.

But let’s keep things in perspective.

Locals in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia used to refer to U.S. troops stationed there during World War Two, from ’42-’46 as “oversexed, over paid and over here.”

Australian workers and soldiers, paid much less than the Yanks, resented that so many pretty girls were going out with the “arrogant” foreigners, with more money to burn on presents, including rare items like silk stockings.

Got so bad there was a giant brawl between hundreds of Australians and Americans on the Wharf immortalized by Irish band the Pogues, in the “Battle of Brisbane.”

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brisbane)

This whole discussion has so far ailed to Unspin perceptions of race and economics.

Question for:

– Indonesian men
– Indonesian women
– Foreign men

What should a foreign guy do when a group of guys make insulting comments or menacing hissing noises to a woman he’s with ?

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 23, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Oops — Unpsun – accidentally posted this twice – -can u delete one ? Achmad.

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treespotter

March 23, 2008 at 2:25 pm

Achmad,

I know you’re not really one with the best questions but really, that is the silliest thing i’ve seen so far.

“What should a foreign guy do when a group of guys make insulting comments or menacing hissing noises to a woman he’s with ?”

You do whatever you think is right, local or foreign, makes no difference. Personally, i’d smack him in the face, but if he’s really big like Brandon and Rob, i probably just leave them and pray to gods of the underworld to do my vengeance.

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unspun

March 23, 2008 at 5:14 pm

@Rob: Duh. Projection. The “dumbass” reference was not directed to you. Unspun recognizes that labeling is a dishonest form of argument and would not use a word unless it is totally appropriate.
For who it refers to go to the Unspun post on Conan The Barbarian and Bloggers and look at comment #7 and tell me that Dumbass is not an apt description for that person who already calls himself some sort of an ass. This is the same person who butted in on the What Do Javansese Girls Think posting with ad hominem attacks on my ethnicity and even the shape of my eyes. I don’t know what’s his slant but reasonable he ain’t. That word is reserved for the supremely obtuse. Unfortunately you do not qualify for the title as I find your arguments reasonable and engaging, if a bit wordy (at least that’s Akismet’s excuse).

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 23, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Treespotter,

What’s silly ? “Right” and “wise” aren’t the best thing. I know a Bule who was walking along in little Japan in Blok M, some thugs made hissing noises at his woman companion, he confronted the group, and its leader covered in scars and tatoos, and immediately five of the Preman faced him down.

* Indonesian cities have a tradition of group fighting. (Actually bouncers everywhere say, mates tend to join in). Slug one guy and you’re slugging the group.

* Premans have knives and could use them.

* Humiliating someone with violence could make the problem worse for someone else down the track.

* I mentioned “foreigner” because I just don’t think Indonesian couples get hassled as much because the losers who do it – know – or think they’ll be picking a fight with the guy and his mates.

Happens all the time between Brimob and the military, between army factions and schools. Schools fight each other because someone insulted someone else’s cewek.

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 23, 2008 at 5:56 pm

P.S. — just btw — if you mean smack, as in slap, yeah maybe but punching someone in the face is usually silly unless you want a fractured metacarpal. Hand is about 28 or more small, delicate bones, much more fragile than the human skull. That’s why boxers wrap their hands, & Muay Thai fighters prefer to use elbows.

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Oigal

March 24, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Unspun,

I made what I believed was a fair request and that was ignored..combined with “is this because we’re hearing for the first time from the other side – articulate Indonesian women who’re smarter and more in-your-face than your average bar pickup or the subservient trophy girlfriend?”

No it because, some idiots cannot make point without getting personal and offensive and others add to it

I knew it would get nasty and personal..seems immaturity and xenophobic remains the hallmarks of blogging in Indonesia..

I’m done with yas..

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Jakartass

March 24, 2008 at 10:49 pm

My “ad hominem attacks on (your) ethnicity and even the shape of (your) eyes” were merely a polite request for the equivalent and responsive epithet we bules can use when being racially insulted by a Chinese-Malaysian.

There is an expression in English about the pot calling the kettle black which, in a parallel universe, would be most appropriate.

I do agree with Oigal that “some idiots cannot make points without getting personal and offensive.”

But that ain’t me, pal. I’d just like some elucidation about your “immaturity and xenophobia”.

But as we know from long experience that you will be unable to provide this, I think I’ll slink off with Oigal to some sleazy bar. It’s his shout.

@Jakartass: Conan The Barbarian and Bloggers Comment #7. And when are you changing your name to Dumbass?

Very skillful argument here. Almost as good as Two Wongs don’t make a White

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treespotter

March 25, 2008 at 8:04 pm

I have to say that this discussion is going to a surreal level.

Achmad, your description precisely illustrate the issue. What i was saying was if someone insulted you, then you do whatever you think is right. You don’t have to elaborate on what happen on Jakarta streets since i live in one. It bears nothing to do with race or ethnic, but more manners. Bad mannered people are everywhere, you just have to deal with it. I live in East Berlin once, i can tell you it wasn’t much better.
Some neighborhood in San Francisco are the worst urban area i’ve seen anywhere. Brixton wasn’t much fun nor secure. my point is, it has nothing to do with a particular country, there’s always a better place somewhere, you just have to deal with it however way you see fit.

this isn’t about race or ethnic.

as for jakartass and your racist comment: you’re embarassing.

imagine if Marshall put all the germans in the camp.

This discussion is surreal. if anybody going to discuss racism proper, then maybe we should. but a bunch of smart pebescent adults talking about girls shouldn’t lead to claim of racism, it is beyond silly.

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 25, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Treespotter,

Agreed on the surreal element. Except for one thing: it’s a clear-and-present security problem for some of the Westerners (ugh, “bule”).

What should they do ? You say what they think is “right”, which doesn’t answer the question at all. Agree on the ill-mannered thing.

Point is a Bule can’t just go up and “settle” the problem with a group of Kampung dudes, Preman, Cops, or whomever is making the problem without raising the kind of feelings – writ large – that are being discussed here.

I think many Indonesians who could avoid it would just avoid walking down the street.

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Marisa

March 26, 2008 at 5:48 am

1.

Unspun thinks this is a very welcome development in the Indonesian blogosphere as people ike Anita, Marisa etc are giving Indoneisan women a voice and are taking an active role in shaping perceptions about Indonesian women, in English.

Thank you for your consideration, but I can’t really say that would be a priority for me. Most Indonesian women I knew are comfortable with the way things are, they do not want change, and they do not ask for it.

When people, such as Oigal, consider the conformed ways here in Indonesia are puritanical, tyrannical, dogmatic, etc, thing is, the women that have been living in such ways aren’t complaining. They even proudly consider that such conditions have given them dignity, respect, and security. On another extreme, we also have the total opposite type of women in this country, and they’ve associated dignity, respect, and security by another different type of standards. So basically, it’s either the hijab, or the Gucci tank top.

Women from both types are not complaining and asking for help–in general. If they are proud of it, then they like it being that way. Therefore, I will not change or shape any perception about them, as long as they respect the rights of women who cannot be associated by both.

Feminists, NGOs, activists, etc would be better off focusing on those who have been letting the abuse to happen day by day because they do not have the (knowledge of) choice, hence they kept quiet about it. As Jakartass have previously pointed out, thank you.

2.
When I commented on Unspun’s earlier post, it was more of “Maybe it isn’t because of you’re Caucasians.”, then the responses given were more of “So, is it because of our wives? Because they’re married to Caucasians?”.

That’s where everything got mixed up and going round and round in circles.

One thing for sure, if ever there’ve been an abusive incident occured, anyone and everyone must report it. If the government have failed you in any way, then instead of arguing, let’s help each other to make sure ALL citizens have their equal rights in this country.

At the mean time, just simply handle the insulting behaviour exactly the way you’ve been handling an issue here. Confident, stable, and yet annoying, and irritating at the same time. If you are sure you have the quality that some men in this world don’t have, then use it. Encourage your wives to learn how to stand up for themselves as well. For that matter, I respect Anita for doing so.

3.
I was not being personal, I have no reasons to be. I have not been married or even dated an expat in my entire life.
If I am provoked, then I will react to it. As simple as that. I am not (let’s say) Oigal’s enemy right now, and Oigal is not mine. Our causes are different but not oppositional, and we just happened to intersect each other.

I do respect how the men here have defended their wives as how husbands should. Regardless your race, all of you here are blessings in your wives’ and children’s lives. (Eventhough that does not justify prejudice towards native Indonesians in general, or assuming everyone is xenophobic, or saying Javanese women cannot find croissants digestible. But for the sake of this peace-keeping effort, I’ll leave my closing statements in brackets.).

Cheers.

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Marisa

March 26, 2008 at 7:15 am

Oh, and this whole peace-keeping effort doesn’t say:
Okay, let’s end this. Can we be blogging friends again?

No.

It’s more of:
Okay, you hate us. We know. I know.
Feel free to hate us. In your blog, in your lives, in wherever. Let’s end this, and stay away from each other.

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 26, 2008 at 8:22 am

Marisa,

Hey, um, what are you trying to say ?

Report harrassment to the cops ? What is this a joke ? The police are the best organized criminals in the country, and as we Indonesians say, you’d get robbed a second time.

I don’t think Indonesian women – once they get educated – are happy at all. If they are so happy, why are divorce races – amongst urban professionals skyrocketing ? In most cases, it’s driven by the women.

I agree with you in that it’s not really “bule” that some of these women like, but liberal-modern thinking men, who don’t SMS them 15 x a day, saying things like “udah makan” hack into their e-mail and friendster accounts, and pull their weight in the home.

Have a look at working hours between men and women in villages and cities here — then ask again if women are as happy as you say.

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Anita

March 26, 2008 at 4:08 pm

I don’t realize this is still on!

Unspun, as I respect both Oigal and Rob’s wishes to leave their family away from this discussion, which I believe very fair, I have rephrased my post.

Cheers.

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Marisa

March 26, 2008 at 11:50 pm

Report harrassment to the cops ? What is this a joke ? The police are the best organized criminals in the country, and as we Indonesians say, you’d get robbed a second time.

Report the abuse, please be consistent in using the term. However, as I’ve suggested, describe it in a clear, chronological, and practical way. Why? Because it is possible that there are different measurements in defining and referring an act as an abuse. Please check one of my posts titled: Open Letter to the ASEAN Foreign Ministers.

Where to report? Wherever you see fit and trustworthy.

I agree with you in that it’s not really “bule” that some of these women like, but liberal-modern thinking men.

And what’s “bule” got to do with liberal-modern thinking men in the first place? Is it because of the Western pop culture? I grew up knowing Westerners (from a certain country, unfortunately, not all) are church-goers, hardworkers, people who read books before bed, parents that tell their children to wash their own dishes.

Liberal-modern thinking people, how do you really define them? By their so-called lifestyle? You say, oh lookie, that guy on the dancefloor is buying a round of tequila shots for everybody!, he must be a liberal-thinking modern man!
Is that it?

C’mon, pak Achmad. Quite sure you can perceive something deeper than that.

I don’t think Indonesian women – once they get educated – are happy at all. If they are so happy, why are divorce races – amongst urban professionals skyrocketing ? In most cases, it’s driven by the women.

Pak Achmad, happiness is a very very very absurd and personal concept. Too absurd to be placed in the context of this discussion. But tell me, will you be happy by hating others who are different from you? Will Anita? Oigal? Rob? Unspun?

There’s no such thing as absolute happiness anyhow, and life will always has its own challenges. But the equality of rights, social justice, and the welfare of a nation’s citizens, that’s what the state must be responsible for.

Sheesh, I sure talk like a politician, do I? 🙄

However, being formally educated does not necessarily mean one is not being apathic, ignorant, and vain. You go to school, graduate, get your certificate, and people call you educated and civilized person. So what? Does it say that educated people must change the world? Fight against the crimes of humanity? Voluntarily participate in debates on race, religion, or any social situations? Does it say that education have built one’s character as a person, an individual?

Nope. Education gives the attributes of intellectuality. Not intellectuality itself.

Therefore, I find no relation between such education and any form of interpersonal relationships, because I find no relation between such education and one’s character and life principles.

I’ve never been married before, but I’d like to believe that marriage is not something one is “educated” to do. It’s more of a matter of character, spirituality, and the L word. Then again, one do not study or teach loyalty by the books. It’s either in one’s blood, or not. Err, metaphorically.

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Rob

March 27, 2008 at 4:28 pm

In my own defence!

I do not hate anyone and did not say that I did as far as I recall. Quite to the contrary I embrace diversity as it is the differences between us that make us unique and special in our own ways! But as Anita said and most of us agree with is that a jerk is jerk! But it probably rings true for a fool is a fool, a clown is a clown, and myriad of other terms.

If I am not mistaken I also said something along the lines of we can agree to disagree but still engage in constructive debate. I think Anita and I, albeit in a rather long way, finally reached this point on a comment in one of my posts that she disagreed with. And as far as I can tell we might even still disagree. But it is not the disagreement that becomes the problem but rather the lack of appreciation for that / those differences. I for one can appreciate that what I wrote and posted was interpreted in a particular way, perhaps not the way I intended but it does not necessarily diminish the alternative interpretation.

I have never met most of the people that have responded to Unspun’s original post and I disagree with many of them and agree with others. Yet, I cannot hate someone just because we disagree! I would hope that Anita and I would get along fine were we to ever meet in person (but Scotland is a long, long way away) and could engage in constructive debate about life and the universe, each from a different perspective and each perspective valid.

If you want to engage in vigorous and emotionally volatile debate Indonesia Matters is always a good place! This is not criticism of the person(s) behind the site but rather an observation of the tone of some of the comments that are made there. Provided these comments do not cross the line of respect, then to each their own, but I guess crossing the line is a subjective point in the sand! And I think that this is a point that Patung has made on a number of occassions. Who gets to choose the line? 🙂

Although bad taste is bad taste! I recently learned that I was a maggot and a worm but hey both created and useful creatures in God’s eyes! All these things are so subjective and most of it is destined to deteriorate into endless cyclical debate.

Hopefully, I have defended myself well and not offended anyone in the process.

Cheers and enjoy the weekend that is approaching…

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rima

March 27, 2008 at 8:30 pm

There are plenty of intelligent Indonesian women on the www, many of which are starting to blog in English. Although I think language does not determine a person’s intelligence, I do think that Indonesian (women) posting in English is better. Why? So that their message will spread beyond Indonesia, and hopefully some people would stop generalizing Indonesian (Asian) women as cheap gold diggers waiting for the great white hope. I have said this many times in several discussion forums, Stupidity along with ignorance and bad manners are not traits that exclusively belong to Indonesians. There are stupid people in every country and every nation.

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 28, 2008 at 9:49 am

Hi Marisa,

By the way, if you’re going to use the word, “Bule” how ’bout we all use its proper translation: White Albino ?

Anyway, still don’t know what you’re talking about. Let’s clarify:

You seemed to infer I was saying that:

– “Bule” is associated with liberal and modern-thinking people.

No. But one of the sub-texts, (once this posting got derailed) was yet again, relations between Indonesian women and caucasian men, and behind it all, our ideas about race, power, and sex. History pops up as well because alot of Indonesian men have this sense of being “wronged” by Bules, ie the Dutch for 350 years. Norak banget deh.

Um, ok, happiness is a “very, very, very absurd concept.” Good one, Marisa — let’s all strive for misery instead. Don’t seem to remember the Dalai Lama’s “Art of Misery and Depression,” on the NYT bestseller list.

Also:

– Report the abuse.

Well, keep ’em coming. The jokes that is. Report the abuse to the local cop station, to the same guys who run beggars’ mafias, tack kickbacks from petty gangsters who shake down pedagang kaki lima, and themselves shake down motorists for petty cash. Yes, the Indonesian police, who fearlessly round up streetwalkers and transvestites, never hestitating to go after the really important cases.

Ah yes, the Indonesian police, those find upholders of the law. I’m sure they’d jump all over a complaint from a Bule (white albino), that his girlfriend or wife had been “abused,” by the local preman, gangsters, penjual – oh that’s right, they’re probably on the police payroll in the first place.

Tell you what, Marisa, why don’t you report the “abuse” next time you get stopped by a cop.

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Rob

March 28, 2008 at 11:15 am

Rima,

Indeed! I agree no one has a mortgage on any of the terms that might refer to some of the issues in this thread such as ignorance, rudeness, and stupidity, among many others.

It is unfair to stereotype and generalize as it detracts for the arguments being made. This topic has since moved a long way from the original point. But I guess this happens in the blogosphere…

Good weekend to all

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 28, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Seems like no-one has a “mortgage” on proper use of English either.

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Rob

March 28, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Achmad…

Maybe the rest of the readers do not (or will not) understand your point…maybe you would care to explain your retort for their benefit (and perhaps mine as well!)…

Then maybe you should re-read your sentence just to be sure that your use of proper English, is in fact proper!

Or perhaps, Sunshine, the lack of an immediate response to engage in a 3-rounder slagging off match with Ross of IM fame has meant you have had to broaden your horizons?

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Rob

March 28, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Achmad…

Unfortunately Akismet captured my superb reply to your earlier comment…so, I guess we will just have to wait for Unspun’s return before you get the chance to read it!

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 28, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Seems like no-one has a “mortgage” on internet competency either. Duh, you could always write it again.

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 28, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Rob – seems to have got through. But you’ll have to do better.

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Rob

March 28, 2008 at 3:06 pm

A much longer one was captured…

Give me your email and I will send you the longer version…

I have previously tried to repost to no avail but will give it a shot after this one…

Sounds like you’re baiting me?

Keep up the good work mate, or would you prefer Sunshine seeing you think that is what shines out of the place where most of us tell people to shove things where they won’t see any sunshine?

But as is par for the course for you Achmad, you pose more questions and issue more challenges without ever addressing the question posed to you…

As Pauline would say, “Please explain?”

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Rob

March 28, 2008 at 3:07 pm

Here is an attempt to repost as requested by Achmad!

Achmad…

Although I am not an English teacher, I am a native speaker and perhaps this highlights that native speakers take more liberties with their language than might be technically correct. But I also did not think that I was replying or operating even in general terms as an educator and as such a teacher of the English language.

But having recently read a rather long thread somewhere else where your mug shot appeared menas that the only other theory is one advanced by Fred Floggle in other posts and other blogs that in fact you are really a native speaker English teacher in disguise.

Yet, to be honest, I think that you are in fact an Indonesian (not the one in the photo that accompanies your postings) but rather and one that has spent time abroad or spent considerable amounts of time with native speakers who use particular phrases. But when it is all said and done the accuracy of who you are is irrelevant to this posting!

I would like to assume (but that will likely make an “ASS” out of “U” and “ME”, but what the hell! I am going to assume that your issue is with mortgage, particularly as you have chosen to put it in inverted commas (tanda kutip?).

Is the issue one of the word mortgage having a specific legal definition that may seem out of place to you in the original sentence? Is it a spelling issue? or Is it a grammatical issue?

But for your benefit “mortgage” was used in my earlier post to reflect that no-one has any claim of ownership or possession to being ignorant, rude, or stupid. You can find those things in any culture and Indonesia happens to be one of those places, as does Australia, as do the countries of Europe. Simply, ignorance, rudeness, and stupidity are universal characteristics.

Fortunately, the Internet and particularly the blogosphere makes the world a much smaller place and allows us to see these character traits much more regularly and more often first hand!

But as I said on another post with some of the pen names that I have seen floating around the blogs I visit, then some of these fellas should be changing their name via Deed Poll to Richard Head and then encouraging their mates to call him Dick! If you catch my drift?

Achmad as always have a nice day! The weekend is soon to be upon us and may this one be a good one for you to weave your Ukelele magic and poetry and I hope that you score well so you can reappear next week in a much more generous and friendly humour!

Cheers

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Rob

March 28, 2008 at 3:10 pm

Rewritten, reposted, and captured again…

As I said give me your email address and I will send it to you (or I could cut and paste your comments to my blog and then combine it with my witty little reply to make it a blog entry at my blog?)…

Or you will just have to wait and see sometime after 1 April when Unspun returns…

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 28, 2008 at 5:16 pm

Hi Rob,

achmadtellsit@yahoo.com

Keen to take on worthy challenges.

What was the question ?

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Rob

March 28, 2008 at 5:46 pm

Simply, why mortgage was not a proper use of English?

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treespotter

March 29, 2008 at 5:57 am

at the ‘mortgage’ bit, surreal no longer describes this threat.

except that i still couldn’t resist. do you think problems with violence and thugs are exclusive threats to foreigners? cause that would be very silly. you’ve indonesians getting beaten up and stabbed every day, how many foreigners get caught up in violence? you’d say because they shy away, but maybe it’s just the way it is, regardless of skin colour.

blah…

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 29, 2008 at 8:05 am

Hi Rob,

Just to clarify, Bule’s actually a pretty ugly word if you look at the real meaning. Other, better words, like Londo – as mentioned in another post.

What I think you meant was a monopoly. How does one have a “mortgage” on rudeness ? What — place some sort of collateral for the permission to use it ?

Tree — don’t think any did say violence doesn’t affect Indonesians, but the triggering post of this thread, before it got derailed was about “bules,” wasn’t it.

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Rob

March 29, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Achmad…

Mortgage was a conscious choice to highlight the idea of exclusiveness of the ownership…however, my point was that no-one owns rudeness or stupidity or any of the other choice words that I could write but rather any where that you go in this big bad world you can find rude and stupid people.

Monopoly would work but it has a slightly different context to the one I was trying to convey…nevertheless, it is an aside from the main arguments — some might say nit-picking but if nothing else you will keep me on my toes, as next time I will also think (perhaps just a nano second) about my word choice 🙂

Enjoy your weekend!

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Achmad Sudarsono

March 29, 2008 at 12:15 pm

You must be a fan of Alanis Morisette, a singer who showed equal word skill in “Ironic.”

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rima

March 30, 2008 at 5:26 pm

Sorry if this is far out of topic.
I am Indonesian, so forgive me if I don’t seem to know the proper use of English.
But I do know Bahasa Indonesia, and as far as I know, the term ‘bule’ is actually used to describe people with white/fair skin, be it caucasians, albino or eurasians such as myself. It just means light, like that person’s hair is ‘bule’ meaning the color of his hair is light (non-black).
I was never aware that this term now has a negative connotation. Maybe in the big cities where there are a lot of bules. But if you go to kampungs, I am sure that the people there are not derogatory when they say, “look.. there is an orang bule!”
have a nice weekend!

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unspun

March 31, 2008 at 6:03 pm

@Rob and Achmad: Back in Jakarta and rescued Rob’s comment (#33) from Akismet. Perhaps less words to convey your thoughts would make Akismet more tolerant of your comments?

Must say that I tend to think that Achmad has the stronger argument here. No matter how you spin it, mortgage is not as apt a word as monopoly in this context.

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Rob

March 31, 2008 at 7:45 pm

Gents (Unspun & Achmad)…

Not a matter of spin but rather one of usage that depends on context and intent…to each their own! It is not worth a long debate. I have rationalized my choice of word in my earlier post and if you still disagree or find that it is not the apt choice, then so be it!

We can start a different thread that explores the apt usage of particular words (or perhaps even a blog) in English, or not!

Later fellas…

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Rob

March 31, 2008 at 7:45 pm

BTW Unspun welcome back to the fray!

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unspun

March 31, 2008 at 8:17 pm

@Rob: Thanks 😉 But who am I to discuss English usage? Obviously Dumbass thinks that me Chinese, no speakee Englis vely well, unlike the England’s chosen sons. ROTFL

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M

April 3, 2008 at 12:25 pm

Sir, here i try again (first trial was loong time ago):

@ Marisa and Ahmad Sudarsono;

Even though Indonesian woman chooses by her own free will to stay at home instead of working or to be beaten by her husband instead of divorce, there are underlying structures which enable/force her to choose in this particular way and which prevent males to choose in the same way. human behaviour study kinda want us to focus on these structures, when we attempt to disentangle the complicated relationship between the sexes.

These underlying structures reveal the true characteristics of gender inequalities. Gender inequalities are, first and foremost, about relations of dominance, about naturalised (and therefore unquestioned) norms, values and premises, which determine the paradigm of actions perceived as possible for individuals. Some have more or better options than others, but no one has none.

As an example lets take the case where most birth control used are female birth control (contradict the fact that women reproduction system is far more complicated than men), this means the woman made up her own mind and use birth control of her own free will.

However, the highly gendered structures of society predetermined her options. She is not free, her male partner are not free, even though they make up their own minds. They are all entangled in a particular dominant discursive structure. the naturalised and unquestioned norms, values, and premises of dominant masculinity – which victimise males and females alike.

@all:

I was working in a mixed culture office and i volunteered to be gender focal point once. and more than once, there were sexual harassments made by expats to the locals. As well as by the locals to expats. men to women, women to men and even men to men. All of the case went to higher level officers, (un)fortunately none of the case went to the police, (so we didn’t get harassed twice as Ahmad say :d ).

the Bules here are right, how do we think they feel when people (not necessarily indonesian men) mock the woman they date for the sake that she date them. i think such act should be included as social harassment.

but somehow i think, we addressed the problem wrongly. this isn’t about men and women, this is simply about individual morality. this show that-apparently, one (Oigal’s) or two (Rob’s) empirical experience is not enough premises to build hypothesis that Indonesian men are suck. Or else, you make some Indonesian (i wana say men, but interestingly Anita is a woman :d ) get mad.

Both Rob and Oigal has admitted their mistakes, so case closed (hopefully).

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Rob

April 3, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Don’t know that I made a mistake because a careful reading of my posts would highlight that I did not make any generalizations but rather modified my statements with words like some, a few, and a minority, among others…

I also did not say all Indonesian men suck! As a matter of fact far from it!

But such is life! And for me the case is closed until the next time someone opens this pandora’s box 🙂

Nice day to all!

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Rob

April 3, 2008 at 4:05 pm

Wah, captured again by akismet and my comments were only a couple of short paragraphs 😦

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Rob

April 3, 2008 at 9:35 pm

Trims on the release…

You’re welcome 🙂

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M

April 4, 2008 at 1:36 am

Rob, it’s not from what you said, its from people’s impression. maybe we get you wrong, or maybe you make us get you wrong.

Oh well. sorry for opening the pandora box. But actually it was posted looong time ago but captured by aksimet. the tool, you can’t blog with it, can’t blog without it..

ok, case really really closed 😀
peace to u all.

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Talk is Cheap. Give It For Free. – Journal by The Lightbeamers, MD.

April 13, 2008 at 11:28 pm

[…] And what do Indonesian women think?, authored by […]

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