Conan the Barbarian and bloggers


One of the strange things about growing up in Malaysia was somehow being introduced to Marvel and DC comics when Unspun was at an impressionable age.

One of the things that stuck to Unspun‘s impressionable mind then was an idea from Conan the Barbarian. I forget the context and the context of the words but it runs something like this: “Barbarians tend to be more polite because they know that they can get their head split for rudeness.”

The occasion that prompted this recall is an incident involving two bloggers, one of them being ranked within the top 5 Indonesian blogs in English in Indonesia Matters, and another a relatively unknown blogger.

Something happened between the top blogger and the Unknown, whereby Top Blogger wrote something about Unknown. Unknown is now responding with threats of physical violence to Top Blogger. Unknown also tells Top Blogger that he knows his identity and where he works. “He has set up a blog to discredit me and to get me physically and to discredit my company.”

Top Blogger is now so terrified that he’s taken his blog off air. In addition Top Blogger has written to many bloggers in the Indonesian blogosphere of the incident. It is not clear what he expects other bloggers to do about it.

Unspun did not read Top Blogger’s postings about Unknown so am in no position to judge. And before anyone can distort anything that Unspun says, let’s make this very clear: UNSPUN IS AGAINST THREATS OF ANY KIND TO BLOGGERS, ESPECIALLY THOSE INVOLVING PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

Having said, that if the past is any indication, and if Top Blogger’s rhetorical style is anything to go by, Unspun would say that he had it coming to him. He and some of the Jalan-Jaksa type bloggers here have been very unreasonable in their arguments, employing dishonest tricks such as emotive language, labeling and other verbal subterfuge and sometimes hunting as a pack.

They are bitter about Indonesia, about their situation in life and would not hesitate to pour vitriol on anyone. The only problem is that they think that they are being smart and vigorous in their argument, which is a far cry from reality.
So this is perhaps a wake up call to all those bloggers out there to keep things civil, keep the playing field level and to take responsibility for what they write. This starts with blogging under your real name – it is extremely foolish to think that you can blog anonymously an with impunity – anyone with a good enough knowledge of how the net works can trace you in a jiffy.

We’ll probably not get to know the exact exchange between Top Blogger and Unknown but Unspun would not be surprised that Unknown felt like Conan the Barbarian when faced with a rude, dishonest and smartass adversary. Make no bones about it, Unknown’s threat is barbaric and should not be condoned. But barbarians sometimes can get the respect that other more genteel folk can’t get. Funny world this.

27 responses to “Conan the Barbarian and bloggers”

  1. Now I am SERIOUSLY and Honestly surprised..and disgusted!!

    “UNSPUN IS AGAINST THREATS OF ANY KIND TO BLOGGERS, ESPECIALLY THOSE INVOLVING PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.”

    “Top Blogger’s rhetorical style is anything to go by, Unspun would say that he had it coming to him”

    This is the SICK BASTARD SYDNEY IMAM rapist defence..”I am against rape but if women don’t cover themselves they deserve it”

    Who decides who has what coming to to who? A valiant stand for free speech Unspun..?

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  2. @oigal: The anology of the imam is not accurate. Talking big on the net is not akin to rape. In fact, if Unknown was as serious and as dangerous as Top Blogger had pictured him out to be he wold have whacked Top without a word being said.

    But you have a point in that my argument may have been overextended by saying that Top had it coming to him. I should have said, in hindsight, “had some sort of come uppance coming to him, though not in the form of physical threats.” Mistake regretted and apologies to all concerned.

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  3. I am disappointed in your recent posting. I think its a bit of a cheap shot to say TB had it coming. And managing to work in a backhanded swipe at the jalan jaksa bloggers well thats just beneath you in my opinion. Whatever you think of TBs rhetoric he was entertaining to read (i think you have clipped his articles yourself) and I think its sad when a blogger is silenced by bald threats.

    I wouldn’t say that barbarians get respect…caution and loathing come to mind.

    regards
    pj

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  4. No but threats are..

    My view take a good hard look at the word “deserved” and must concur with PJ about the Barbarians..although an apt image of some of free speech thugs having such a great run in Indonesia at the moment

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  5. For Information.

    ‘Top Blogger’ emailed Ong as follows:
    Ong,

    I know you don’t like me, but i would like to ask you if you would take down the Conan post please. If you could do that I would be grateful.

    Cheers

    (Top Blogger)
    ………………………………
    To my knowledge, ‘Top Blogger’ has not had the courtesy of a reply from Ong, even though Ong is privy to some of the email thread.

    I also emailed Ong as I (we) felt that in not airing this issue, it might die a natural death, rather than the violent one that had been threatened. I know that I too have not had the courtesy of a reply.
    …………………………………….
    Your post, Conan, is irresponsible, Ong.

    The ‘Unknown’ blogger is not that unknown; he is litigious and libelous in the extreme, as has been proven in a court of law, a case that ‘Top Blogger’ reported two years ago. Why the ‘Unknown’ blogger should only now seek his ‘vengeance’ is mystifying. He is malicious and considered dangerous. If he attempts to return to Indonesia he will be arrested on sight at any port of entry.

    He is British and now lives in Portugal (with his Indonesian wife). Having sent a death threat via email, the British Consul has been informed and he, in turn, has informed Scotland Yard in the UK who are now liaising with Interpol. Arrest warrants have been issued.

    Your bilious comments about expat bloggers are far from the truth and totally uncalled for, especially within this context. The ‘Top Blogger’ had the courtesy to write to you previously so you do know something about this issue. In airing it you are exacerbating it.

    Having also been intimidated thanks to your writings in the newspaper which once employed you, you have reinvented yourself since coming to Indonesia.

    We would therefore have expected more understanding from you.

    J

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  6. i just love the passion on this threat.

    PS: out of curiosity, to have such email threat turned in to the Scotland Yard and further resulted in an international arrest warrant across three jurisdictions, not including the muddy water of internet and anonymous identity, i think is pretty impressive.

    is this ‘TB’ character in any way associated with the royal family or anything as such?

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  7. @Oigal: always a pleasure to be in a conversation with you, even though we may disagree. I respect your acumen and open-mindedness.

    @PJ-Bali: I can see your point but what do you do, if you are not very good with words and have someone “bullying” you in the blogosphere? Agreed violence should not be a preferred route but what if the bully does not respect the rules of fair argument and discourse?

    @tree: You are not suggesting that anyone is involved in *gasp* exaggeration and hyperbole by any means, are you?

    @Jakartass: Ah, Sheriff, would you be man enough to change your blog name to the more correct description of DUMBASS if it is proven that:

    1. I had a very good reason to be unable to respond to TB straight away? (hint: read Tuesday’s Kompas, like most well informed people in Jakarta do)

    2. Unspun had, in spite of having to take care of personal matters, bothered to reply to TB at 12.52am last night, just under 12 hours before you posted your diatribe here?

    3. Perhaps TB is the one who had not returned the courtesy of responding to Unspun’s reply (which of course then means, if TB had read the reply, that he a) did not inform you and let you look like a fool and/or b) he did not bother to post a response here to set matters right or c) he has not yet read Unspun’s reply.

    As to your e-mail, you do not deserve the courtesy of reply because of your past behavior which shows a complete inability to exercise discretion and honesty in forwarding your points.

    So Dumbass or some Dumbass response?

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  8. What a horrible breakdown in Indonesia’s blogging community we’ve witnessed recently. Still, I don’t actually care that much, I just wish the petty squabbles and churlishness on all sides could be kept hidden away so we, the audience, could get on with enjoying the normally informed and witty banter and articles that yourself and all the usual suspects normally provide when you’re all not getting your knickers in a twist (top cat included).

    However this post is roadcrash material – it’s sheer inappropriateness cannot be understated. It’s undiluted vitriol, and horrifically uninformed, and most likely could have some nasty consequences beyond your realm. But I don’t blame Unspun as how was he to know, it’s just an opportunity to have another (probably justified) dig. A more humane person though would not have published it in the first place, and certainly have considered editing later.

    Still, ya know, whatever. Peace out.

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  9. oh.. TB is xxxxxxx. Why am i not surprised.

    Unspun: Sorry Bonar, Unspun’s mistake: you weren’t supposed to know who TB is. Hence the deletion of the blogger’s name. But what do you mean you’re not surprised?

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  10. Thanks Unspun,

    I do find this whole thing a bit bizzare and cannot help but think the positions taken here by many are based on old grudges and paybacks rather than the principle involved. I will do a post later as to do anything more here risks his friend is my enemy.

    “What a horrible breakdown in Indonesia’s blogging community we’ve witnessed recently” Too true..Dave…egos and bloggs a nasty mix at times..

    Tree..just ducking in to stir the pot..eh

    Unspun..I think it would be fair to say that you are far more adept at “spinning” than I (tis your job so not unexpected) but by your own words

    “violence should not be a preferred route but what if the bully does not respect the rules of fair argument and discourse?”

    Should you and I get into a passionate discourse and you make me look a fool (which as a wordsmith should be fairly simple) then whilst not preferred it would be acceptable and expected for me to beat you down physically??

    I find your position on this very strange considering the risk journalists take every day in reporting throughout SE Asia..

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  11. @Oigal: “Breakdown of Indonesia’s blogging community…” hich blogging community. Does it deserve a bit of a shakedown which is not tantamount to a breakdown? Was it getting too cozy?

    The quote you you used on violence is a question. Let me link that to the nxt paragraph about journalists in SE Asia and risks, since in my past life I have been one.

    As a journalist then we wrote with acute awareness of what could happen to us if we pushed the envelop too far. We were aware that the government could use emergency powers, the internal security act to put us into prison, use proxies to sue the pants off us. Or if we wrote about criminal rackets those guys could send goons after us, though in all fairness it happens rarely.

    It was not fair but if we wanted to continue to work in journalism we had to accept this as a fact of life. What this did was make us very careful in our writing and use of language. We double checked facts, we wrote around some things, we bused language that did not provoke but got the facts out.

    I think this element is missing in blogging. many bloggers, in the name of free speech, is using their newfound weapon of choice to cash and burn others with a mentality that because they blog they should enjoy the benefits of free speech.

    This is a fallacy. The real world is much nastier than the ideal world and what happens is that if you blog about nasty characters (as Unknown’s blog seems to suggest he is) without taking due care of language and facts you risk antagonizing them to a point where they, like Unknown, resort to threats of violence.

    What do you do then? You take responsibility for what you blogged, your choice of words and the consequences of that blogging.

    What I am getting at is that bloggers should take that responsibility, rather than hide behind the rights of bloggers to exercise free speech. My post is a reminder that a blogger would be very naive to think that they can be ill-mannered be able to get away with it with all the people, all the time. This is not tantamount to condoning threats of violence, even though everyone seems to rad it as such.

    As for spinning, you and I try to advance and frame our arguments for the utmost persuasive effect, yet because I am a PR flack, I’m spinning if I do it fairly well. I guess it is the cross that we PR flacks must bear 🙂 Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa.

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  12. I don’t know what the issues are, and how the Unknown tracked down Top Blogger. But I thought we all know that there is no such thing as anonymous blogging.

    Even if we use anonymous proxies, Invisiblog or GPC, we will always leave a trail in the internet, which can be intercepted by somebody who has a little knowledge about how internet works.

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  13. Mmm..I am suckered back into the fray..
    “Breakdown of Indonesia’s blogging community” was that me??
    I am having enough trouble defending my own point of view without the extras.
    Never the less, I have no issues with the odd blog war of words. I for one enjoying ripping into an old fossil over at IM.

    I think you have missed my point with the spinning thing..My point was it would be reasonable to assume in any drawn out written debate, your skill level would be higher than mine (statement of fact not sour grapes). From your orginal posting, a recourse open to me would be violence. I would not, but it seemed a logical conclusion drawn from

    “violence should not be a preferred route but what if the bully does not respect the rules of fair argument and discourse?”

    Your words not mine..and yet had you framed your orginal post in a simliar fashion to your last comment, I would not launched into comment blizzard mode.

    Rasyad, ..You are of course correct but even a plastic bag helps in the rain. I do not think it is reasonable to expect all bloggers to identify themselves up front and easy tho.

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  14. Holy crap. The passion oh the passion. Viagra does work wonders for old people!!

    Unspun: where was this reply that you responded at 12.72pm tuesday? (i’m deputizing myself sheriff since the real sheriff and you has beef to cook). I was on the list, and i din’t see any. I wonder why the reponses were made private and the post were made public? Oh! Scandalous!

    Everybody else, please do not participate in this shameful act of bloggy exercise of masochistic self applaudiation. Please come to my blog and read my post instead? this passionate exchange is distracting to my blog popularity and i need to climb higher. Socially, i mean.

    This is so much fun. I am ashamed.

    PS: Applaudiation isn’t a word, apparently.

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  15. Don’t know the details but TB slandered this guy and the guy had the wits to be able to hunt him down and find out who he was. To be honest it’s a lesson in using the internet to defame others. I kind of agree with Unspun and disagree with Oigal; if you’re going to blog and attack others, at least put your name to it, so those who you attack know who to reply to and the context. Anonymous bloggers are a bit like hidden snipers in a war.

    Why does always Unspun attack Jalan jaksa and the bule tourists there? What’s that got to do with the issue?

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  16. @tree: Stand-in Sheriff can solve mystery simply by ask TB himself.

    @alex: will answer your question in due time or it may take us into another long and winding side road.

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  17. Viagra..Me?? It gives me killer heart burn..much prefer a pretty woman far more natural and no side effects..oh except for babies, and empty wallet and apparently shortly there after all my friends are no longer acceptable as humans.

    Alex… scary sport…

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  18. They are bitter about Indonesia, about their situation in life and would not hesitate to pour vitriol on anyone. The only problem is that they think that they are being smart and vigorous in their argument…

    I concur with this statement, and often I think, they use so-it-seems a “higher level” of English so it would look more sophisticated.

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  19. Hey Oigal,

    I don’t think that you understand the issue.

    This blogger was not shut down; he chose to delete his blog because a man living in Europe; a Britisher found out who he was after he had been attacked and mocked for no reason. The Britisher asked the blogger to take down the posts or at least put his name to them. Isn’t it about credibility?

    Free speech comes with responsibility and debate, not by smearing people for fun and without reason on the net. If you insult somone in a pub to their face, you run risk of getting beaten up. Why should it be any different on the net? This is not about powerful people it’s about two Britishers brawling for no reason.

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  20. @Mike: Thank you for the brilliant analogy of two Brits in a pub. I wished I had used that to start with so kudos to you for thinking of it.

    If I then go with Mike’s analogy, you could be more smartass and rude in a pub patronized by middle class types and be able to get away with it with nothing more than gasps of annoyance than a pub in a rough neighborhood, where you’re likely to be beaten up.

    So our hero would tend to be more polite, more restrained or at least more careful with his words in the rough neighborhood populated by pub patrons that are the modern Conans of our day.

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  21. Oigal: I am not saying that bloggers should not be anonymous. I find anonymous blogging just fine.

    It’s just that, I think, being anonymous is extremely difficult, if not impossible. Using pseudonym does not help. Unless you use Invisiblog or GPC, it’s as good as blogging under your real name.

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  22. Thanks Rasyad, Sorry if I mis-read although there does seem to be a certain section og bloggers here that does think that you should blog under your real name (I agree with you is that pseudonym just a bit of fluff).

    I also agree that real names lead to making a blog more creditable and responsible. However, for instance, for me to use my real name that would imply that I believe the legal system and political system is robust enough to withstand some well earned verbal slapping from time to time.
    That is not the case, for proof you need look no further than thid site (see the Police Response to the bribery video). Further proof is even in this thread where, whilst some fluffery noises are made about violence (or threats of) being wrong the very next sentance invairably provides a justification of violence/threats of varying strength depending on the writer.

    I find it interesting that even for bloggers the onus seems to be that holding bloggers and the press accountable is far more important than holding public officials and companies accountable. Surely if anything its time for the pendulum to swing the other way? Is anyone really seriously suggesting that politicians are held accountable by the press in Indonesia?
    Do we really have a free speech ethos in Indonesia?

    I could safely say under my own name that GW Bush, John Howard, Rupert Murdock and Tony Blair are serial masterbaters and public thieves but would I dare say that about leading Indonesian business men and Public Leaders? Not for long, Even with researched proof, could someone reasonably expect a fair court hearing in a court case against a senior public figure?

    I have been trying (with not much success due to my own limitations) to argue the principle rather than one particular person. Personal dislike seems to have forced many to adopt positions I think unusual.

    thanks

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  23. Hey Have i been banned..last two post did not go thru?

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  24. @Oigal: Not banned but arrested by Akismet. Have retrieved one comment but the other is lost among the 1,400+ spam received since I last deleted the lot. Sorry.

    Akismet has taken on a life of its own as the new Sheriff in town. LOL.

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  25. Thanks Rasyad, never meant to imply you were saying that, although I find it amazing that such a large section of bloggers have an issue with anonymous posting ( I agree its not really anonymous anyway but hey..)

    Many here seen to be allowing their dislike for a particular person compromise principles I would have thought were held dear in blog world and any place else namely that public figures are held accountable and the principles of Free Speech are always defended.

    I find it curious that so many here think bloggers should be accountable and responsible for their actions and by their very lack of support seem unwilling to demand the same from Public Figures (Political and Business) in Indonesia. Surely, its time for the pendulum to swing the other way?

    As for the pub analogy, come on guys.. So you are suggesting that Indonesia is a “Pub in a Rough Neighborhood”? That is the scenario from where we draw our guidance on what’s acceptable in reformist Indonesia?

    This threads quasi-acceptance of threats and violence (even with the warm and fuzzy qualifications) demonstrates just how far we have to go. Who can expect to hold public figures accountable if every utterance is based on the rule of the rough pub (although I must admit, it is a fair analogy is a fair representation of Indonesian Public Press and its reporting on public figures).

    If anything, the analogy further proves why someone should remain anonymous (as far as possible) if they intend to comment on anything outside the mainstream believers manual of factoids on planet intimidation. You are not going to walk into a rough neighborhood pub and shout “ I know you are pack of thieves and I am going to tell everyone about it ..oh and BTW my name is Fred Snerk and I live at ABC rosmary lane”

    Is it reasonable that under your own name, with well researched proofs you would get a fair shake in Indonesia against major players? Tempo ring any bells?

    Perhaps closer to home, have a look at the Police Response on this site to the bribery video. Or much worse, this particular thread where the concept of accountability seems to lie with those who write rather than the inept and corrupt and just plain nutty who provide so much to write about.

    As a side issue, does anyone think the Health Minister deserved better treatment?

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  26. ooops ..sorry thought the post was cyber mugged

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  27. Dang Sheriffs, I hold that Treespotter dude responsible…even since he came in from poking cows and declared himself deputy, life has not been the same down at the saloon..

    BTW..Thats it..topic officially beaten to death..I’m riding off into the sunset

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