Where do our ancestors come from?

October 20, 2007

A frequent commentator in Unspun, Vic.Kyle.Ellanne asked: “Would Unspun like to start a new topic on this: Where exactly your ancestors came from before we have Malaysia & Indonesia….” in a comment on Rasa Not so Sayang. Ever the servant to his readers Unspun‘s only too happy to oblige:

Malaysian anthropologist, the chic Michael Chick (sorry, couldn’t resist that) has already started the ball rolling in that thread but its worth starting a new thread on this topic. So the answer to where Malaysians and Indonesians came from is:

MC: To answer directly to that question, the answer is the Phillipines, at circa 4,000yrs ago) and before that, the Phillipinos came from Taiwan (circa 6,000yrs ago). The first Indonesians to migrate to the Peninsular Malaya was circa 3,000yrs ago.

Why are some Selangorians (Unspun: state in Malaysia) still call themselves Javanese,
MC: 75% of Peninsular Malays are Javanese Migrants. Mostly the migration occured less than 100yrs ago.

Johoreans call themselves Bugis even when their ancesters were here centuries ago.
MC: They do not like the word Melayu, as it means “fugitive” in Javanese. Also, Tanah Melayu means the “Land of the Fugitive”. Not a very pleasant name.

Does Jakarta people call themselves Jakartarians?
MC: No, they call themselves Javanese. Just like you dont see people calling themselves Petaling Jay-ites or Taipingians.

(Unspun: The “native” Jakartans call themseles Betawi. Taiping people call themselves Taipingites, but that’s merely an Anglicization)

Unspun is sure the chic Chick will share his knowledge if you have questions about the origins of your ethnic group.

unspun

Indonesia, Malaysia

43 responses to “Where do our ancestors come from?”

Riza

October 21, 2007 at 1:06 am

As I recall, native Jakarta people called themselves “Betawi”.. Not Javanese.. they both truly use different languages and I believe they will also refuse to be called Javanese.. (CMIIW please..)

By the way, I’m Indonesian but my grandmother (from my mother side) is Malaysian living in Selangor.. My late grandfather brought his family from Java to Selangor in the mid 30s and settled well there until now.. and it is true that in his “Kampong”, they got like 90% javanese and they still keep the languange as well..

But nevertheless, I’m proudly saying that I’m Indonesian just like my other Indonesian fellows.. not Melayu eventhough my Father from South Sumatra, nor Betawi because I was born in Jakarta.. Just simply Indonesian..

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Vic.Kyle.Ellanne

October 21, 2007 at 3:17 am

Ha HA, Uspun, I really love you for this! Let’s see if both Malaysian & Indonesian are really that much of a different.

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kemsey

October 21, 2007 at 3:54 am

Jakarta people called themselves Jakartan (orang Jakarta): this is the modern multi-ethnic metropolis that is Jakarta no matter what your ethnicity is. You can be Padang and Jakartan, Eurasian and Jakartan etc etc.

Now, going further back to the original inhabitant of the city, we have the Betawi- the guardian of claim as the original Jakartan. They now live mostly live in the outer rings of Jakarta, where they speak a very distinct Betawi Malay dialect which influenced a big part of Jakartan slang, thus elevating it to a national prestige as ‘the’ slang to use to be hip-

Interestingly, this Betawi culture is a not-so-long ago concoction. They only appear around the 18th century, making it – yes- a truly Creole culture. They are the result of centuries of interaction in this busy port city between Sundanese, Javanese, Chinese, Arab, Balinese, Malays, Ambonese and other ethnic groups. This is why the language that they used is Malay-based, which is the lingua franca of the Archipelago, but then morphed into their own Betawi dialect.

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xtrhic

October 21, 2007 at 12:01 pm

wouldnt the Betawi people originate from the Sundanese? you know the folks that live in the Priangan (Parahyangan) highlands?
I think I disagree if the Jakartan are called Javanese. Sure most of the are from Central and East Java (like Sooty) but 3rd gen Jakartans usually identify themselves as Betawi.

cheers.

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triedtobehonest

October 22, 2007 at 4:31 am

The difference between Indonesian and Malaysian in this are Indonesians never tried to take a Philippines folksong as their heritage 🙂
Most Indonesian always call themselves by their ethic group like javanese, sundanese, betawi, etcetera. But if asked, they would say they are Indonesian first, then comes the ethnic group. If ever there’s a disagreement in a discussion, someone usually said: come on, we are all Indonesians here, so lets figure out something.

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kamarul

October 22, 2007 at 7:01 am

well hahaha what a joke… triedtobehonest@: If ever there’s a disagreement in a discussion, someone usually said: come on, we are all Indonesians here, so lets figure out something.

i wondered why this guy is just malingering without brain??? what about Timur leste, Acheh, GAM, religious conflict in Ambon. the whatsoever action they did in these cases proven otherwise…im not saying that those indonesians are not good ppl but when somebody say they are peaceful ppl, i disagree the most…i guess they really figure things out by violence etc, what a shame

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triedtobehonest

October 22, 2007 at 9:19 am

I said in a disscusions, not in a catfight 🙂
What happens at Aceh is an inheritance from the new order. Just like the Jakarta riots who targets many Chinesse because the economic policy during Suharto time preffer Chinesse. Timor Leste? Well they DO needed us to keep the peace after all. While for the Ambon conflight, you’ve got to agree that there’s a third party brewing the conflight there.
I would like to add the Madura people who seems to be the target of many many racial conflict in Borneo. It seeems that they are doing well in the Island, so well that many people who are native are jealous. But like Malaysia development that needs Indonesian workers, their economy will not run if there is no Madura people trading and doing the hard labour.

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kamarul

October 22, 2007 at 12:20 pm

@triedtobehonest ;-): I said in a disscusions, not in a catfight
???? i don’t understand what r u trying to imply??? easy understanding lah when theres a problem and ppl start to argue each other, then they have to choose between two ways, to settle down and discuss the problem or by not having any will to discuss directly go to war(fightlah). the latter can oso happen when the first fail. from wat i understandlah, both are interconnected wit each other, its a continuous process, it shows how the ppl choose to get down to either way…

well im not an-all knowing person n ive never been to Indon either. i look uguys based on what uguys did in Indon or elsewhere. and the hell yeah u can blame others for all the problems but at the end its the ppl who take the path, so its them to be blamed the most…

in malaysia oso we’ve got problem and yeah the govern oso to be blamed for the policy but have u ever seen a large scale interracial riot these days??? NO becoz we prefer to sit and settle down nicely, just peace protest here and there which is okay and oso small fire here and there, anywhere oso got. although its a slow walk but hey its worth it, we don’t get lots of ppl dying. furthermore, alot others died from other causes

from my point of view, nationbuilding wise, the thing that matters is how the ppl try to solve problems maturely and civilized. im not saying malaysia doesn’t have problem but slow and steady improvement is better to avoid any disastrous outcome

can u help by explaining what do u mean by new order in Acheh? why timor leste needed indon to keep peace? and whos and how third party role in Ambon?? just wanna ask, isnt it the indon army that fight timor leste separatist and since when indon army become the peacekeeper???

i don’t want to comment on “But like Malaysia development that needs Indonesian workers, their economy will not run if there is no Madura people trading and doing the hard labour.” this is just a crap to compare madura in borneo and malaysia, becoz if no indon worker oso i think the sector can get from elsewhere. oso just heard in news last few days, got more bangla here, they are more hardworking, less pay and less crime…most employer prefer bangla than indon…(don’t blame me 4 this statement becoz i just state what the tv news said, i don’t have any personal opinion on this matter) 😉

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kamarul

October 22, 2007 at 12:22 pm

huhu unspun akismet again, pls help tq

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kemsey

October 22, 2007 at 12:39 pm

How do you define ‘these days’? Malaysia experienced its race riots in 1969.

Aceh is now governed by a governor that is direcely elected by the Acehnese, not appointed by Jakarta, he is actually the former rebel leader GAM- imagine that! a rebel turned into a governor. And they are also given a special privilege to implement a limited form of Sharia law. Only in Aceh.

East Timor- just do a search on news.google.com- most of the stories from Timor don’t really paint a rosy picture about the current state of the country. Even after the withdrawal of Indonesia, they still fight each other (the eastern part with the western part of the country). And no, Indonesia is never a peace keeper there, it would be wrong to be involved after the separation.

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triedtobehonest

October 22, 2007 at 1:40 pm

My opinion of discussion is when a group of people sit together to work out a problem. A catfight is when the group of people skip the discussion part straight to the fighting part. You’ve seen a movie where the wife suddenly storm in and start attacking the mistress right? Thats a catfight.

Yes, Aceh used to wants an Independence from Indonesia. Why? because in Suharto time (it’s called the NEW ORDER) they suffered a lot of oppresions. Why again? so that the Suharto croonies can have most of their natural resources. But do come to Aceh these days, all is peaceful. If you wants your children to grow in a sharia law, move in.

Ambon, the never ending conflict zone. A bomb after bomb. Did you know it is actually a religion conflict? Nowhere in Indonesia has had a riot based on religion. It makes you think whats wrong there? The government are puzzled too. Thats why it is suspected there is a third party outside Indonesia is the our who keeps bombing here and there. Some say it Al-Qaeda. Who knows…

Yes, as Kemsey has said it, Timor Leste are continue to fight among each other after we left (they didn’t fight as much when we were there you know). And if you said it’s because it as been colonialized by Indonesia, well, read the books again will you. Timor Leste is already on the verge of civil war before we went in. So us being there is a peace keeping enough. That’s why back in the late 60s and early 70s, Australia and America suppported Timor Leste coming to Indonesia. They are afraid it will turned into a trouble corner like Nicaragua, or worse, to communism. Of course, the support are slowly reduced after they found out that there’s oil in the Timor Gap. Without Indonesian government in the way, it will be much easier to have the oil mining concensus.

So much for your BANGLADESH (please do not shortened it like you shortened Indonesia into INDON), India, China or whatever workers. I have a sister living in KL, she inform me that the reason why the malaysia Government seek workers from these country is because the supply are running low from Indonesia (that’s right, a lot of Indonesian workers preffer to work in HK or Korea now because their treatment is a alot better that in Malaysia). Bangladesh and Indian workers are not gonna come as cheap as Indonesian workers. And, there’s already a strong rejection coming from the Women in Malaysia about hiring a chinese maid. Most are afraid that their men would be attracted to them rather than to their own wife 🙂

And Kamarul, do check the construction site down town KL, Putra Jaya, whereever, asked around. More Bangladesh people or Indonesian?

Most Malaysian preffer to sit out something because they are already in their comfort zone, afraid if they move, something will spoil it. I read it somewhere about 4 years ago. If you read many many good books lately, you know that if you are afraid to come out of your comfot zone, nothing will get better, either stay the same or regress.

If thats what happens to Singaporeans years ago, where would they be??? And look at them now, prospering by the minute.

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kamarul

October 22, 2007 at 7:57 pm

akismet again…so boring aledy hehe any help would be much appreciated

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kamarul

October 22, 2007 at 8:08 pm

Kemsey:
better word nowadays lah (im not so good in eng). war wit GAM have been for how long?? how many life u lost?? I really don’t think even a single life can be sacrificed. did they sit down and talk first before going to war?? i think they took arms first later talk right?? (correct me if im wrong) which i think is not wise enough…not a good solution for any problem. Acheh prob got settled through negotiation table is due to momentum they got from tsunami tragedy…i guess God sent the signal to teach them how to solve problem wit brain

timur leste civil war?? read historylah uguys, any newly independent nation got to have this problem except Israel which i don’t find any…its due to the power vacuum so everybody wants the power!! its indonesian military crazy intervention that cost u east timur. i oso doubt they have internal prob b4 indonesia come…aren’t they allies during the independence process??? pls explain

triedtobehonest:
based on ur definition of “discussion” and “catfight” which i disagree abit but lets just use it here, can u pls tell me any proof that indonesian solve probs through discussion?? becoz i don’t really know and what i know in Acheh uguys fight first then talk later, in Timur leste of course uguys fight, fight oso in Ambon

is indon word or bangla got any bad meaning?? i can accept malay word even it has some bad meaning hehe…these words are so widely used in malaysialah, cant run away from it, aledy become our jargon. but hey unless u can prove to me that it gives bad meaning then i don’t have the right to insult u…

of course construction sector got alot indonesian, its from previous batch…nowadays it started to trend away…ppl like bangla than indon!!! yeah im happy if most indon go to HK and elsewhere not malaysia, have to lessen their community size. a total cleanup is even better especially those illegal immigrants that came by boatloads. BTW, chinese usually go to prostitution rather than maid from the beginning…the taukeh thought it better to be that way really

afraid to go out from comfort zone??? hehe even the ppl in govern is arguing among themselves (Gerakan and PPP against UMNO). lately got one judge really made some rulings against the govern. im SURE if an election done based on vote share and not electoral regions, the BN government dah lama bungkus since 1994…its just some electoral problem!! even bumis esp malays got growing discontent wit the govern policy, not to mention nonmalays

its not we afraid, we r doing it the civilized, matured, safe, clever way. NOT to compromise ppl life, economic and social achievement. Biar Lambat asal selamat becoz when these things damaged, got to wait long time to recover lah

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tiara

October 23, 2007 at 8:39 am

To Kamarul

seems that you need to read a lot abt Indonesia especially abt what happened in Aceh, Timor Leste and Ambon before making any comment. You also need to understand abt what Indonesians have been going through during Soeharto era (hey, the victims were not only Acehnese, Papuans or East Timorese, many Javanese or other ethnic groups become the victims of the regime but the world didn’t notice it because it didn’t sell good in international media compared to issue abt Papuans or East Timorese) and the transition process during the first years of reformasi. It was difficult time indeed, many mysterious and unresolved things happened.

If you’ve ever studied the relation between conflict and ethnicity, you will understand why all those riots and killings happen. Many of these conflicts started with small, petty things which has nothing to do with ethnic or religion but because certain people took advantage of it for their own political and economical power, those small conflicts have escalated into a quite big and worrying religious or ethnic war. There are certain pattern for a peaceful multiracial multiethnic society to turn into a warzone. I used to study this topic and Indonesian situation during those years perfectly fit the pattern.

Aceh, East Timor, Maluku or Papua are looooooong stories to be told. But it seems you oversimplifised the problem when you said it’s easy for the two parties to talk over the differences by just sitting down and negotiate. The world is never that simple mate, just because you don’t have that problem (yet- I hope never) doesn’t mean this politic world is as simple as you think it is.

To tell the truth, as Indonesian I feel we become double victims. First, we are the victims of our own crazy government and military (especially during Soeharto era), secondly the whole world blaming us for what happened in Aceh, East Timor and Papua. Imagine being a US citizen who’s against the war in Iraq but being blamed by the whole world for the Iraq war. That is how we feel, but we feel worst because we also the victim of the war.

Mature and civilized is different from hiding the problem under the carpet. Are you sure what you have now in your country is a true harmonious and civilized society? What if suddenly the Chinese and Indians decide to take harsher step to fight the discrimination they face in their daily life?

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triedtobehonest

October 23, 2007 at 11:37 am

Thank you Tiara, I am getting bored handling a person who never took social theories classes. He talk like a lady 🙂 (no offense ladies)

Yadda Yadda Yadda…..

Back to this threat is all about. I am and an Indonesian living in Jakarta. According to my mom, as far as she know my father family originated in Java island. But from my mom side, we have Chinese blood from my mom grandfather and some Caucasian blood from the other branch of my mom grandfather.

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kamarul

October 23, 2007 at 11:38 am

hehe wah long comment for me tiara, just finished replying u in the other thread, now this hehe… the all-knowing princess

of course no nation on earth don’t have petty problems, small fires here and there…its no big deal. even here in malaysia oso we got that, arms fight against govern, oppressive policy, racial and religious tension and so on. peaceful protest is okay as its the way of expression…and we need those to understand each other…

thats why im making this point…to see how well the nationbuilding is working, the civilization and maturation of the society…only by looking at how the ppl take care of those petty issues, not to mention big things. like u said in indon it mostly due to petty issue, if the society matured and civilized enough, they don’t simply go don’t to the road!!! of course not everything is simple, its complicated…even complicated cases can be solved through nego tabl if the society knows when to exercise restraint and where to draw the line…

sorry to hear that uguys feel like to US ppl who opposed the Iraq war but then u see they are trying really hard to change the course in the Iraq war lah…becoz they realized aledy its wrong!!! but u indons i dont see uguys learning lah…uguys got experinces in those troubled region aledy, uguys should be expert aledy…but i see the same old thing again…u dont know where to draw the line, where is the limit, how to exercise restraint, how to manage prob from getting worsen…all uguys did is making the problem worsen…by the way we all should take all the possible steps to reduce the tension!!!! burning flag is just making the tension like nak meletop lah

bout racial tension in malaysia, im sure my indian and chinese friends won’t take the same step as we all did in 1969, we all know aledy, it wont go anywhere. but of course small fires here and there nobody cannot avoid!!! i think we malaysian matured and civilized enough not to do those craps… even we, alot malays here wit the nonmalays were helping each other out…even in the NEP policy thing which prefer malay, im a malay and im with my nonmalay friends are against this unjustice but of course cleverly and according to the proper channel

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kamarul

October 23, 2007 at 11:46 am

haha hehe @triedtobehonest: im talking like a lady??? what a joke hehe really hmm what about responding my Qs above??? or u just hide and really takut to respond to my comments really…

whats the point taking social theory class…but u dont even know how to think lah… now i really know whos the lady

hehe gotta stop this lady’s who crap…just making the point that arguing with u whos the lady here is the only childish things to say…by which if u are an adult, even this who’s lady thing won’t come up really

cheers man (if ur a man and an adult), start thinking more yeah 😉

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kemsey

October 23, 2007 at 11:59 am

Kamarul, this will help you understand more on Timor Leste issues:

Lorosa’e (Sunset/Easterners) and Loromunu (Sunset/Westerners) conflict study at

Click to access Trindade_Castro_Rethinking_Timorese_Identity.pdf

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kamarul

October 23, 2007 at 12:04 pm

orait thanx kemsey

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triedtobehonest

October 23, 2007 at 12:57 pm

@kamarul

haha hehe @triedtobehonest: im talking like a lady??? what a joke hehe really hmm what about responding my Qs above??? or u just hide and really takut to respond to my comments really…

triedtobehonest:
No, I just realized why a lot of people stopped arguing with you. As MC write it somewhere, please somebody spank you, you are far long winded than he is.

You remind me of my mother when nags. Nobody can stop her, and no mather what you said, it will always be returned to us blankly. She can’t take logic at this point you see… All you can do is stop talking and wait for about 2-3 hours, she will be normal again. Then you can talk some sense. It just the truth about my mom, and I love her.

If I wanted to, I can continue this bickering, but like I said, I just realized why a lot of people stopped arguing with you. All I can do now is to try put this thread back to its original tittle.

Kamarul, can you trace your family tree at least 3 generations before you without having at least 1 person that was related to Indonesia? From what I read up above, most malaysian have Indonesian blood somewhere in their family tree

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kamarul

October 23, 2007 at 2:56 pm

stop arguing?? hehe if u r so logical enough, try to argue with me lah!!! nagging??? what a crap….at last u didnt answer any of my Qs…ur the one nagging lah

now i answer ur Q, ive bugis blood line…now if u can answer my Q…hehe

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Michael Chick

October 24, 2007 at 11:37 am

Me? an Anthropologist???
You gotta be kidding, Unspun!!!

Maybe a “Historian”, and a little on South-East Asian Archaeology (a small, tiny sub-division of Anthropology) I did discover 4,000year old cavewoman bones in Borneo (verified by the Sabah Museum) as well as hundreds of clay pottery sherds of the time period manufactured in a nearby pre-historic site at Bukit Tengkorak of the same time period.

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Michael Chick

October 24, 2007 at 11:45 am

Coming back to the discussion on origins of the “Malays” (in Malaysia). Most migrated from Indonesia less than 100years ago, so it should not be too difficult to trace your ancestry. at least 4million were brought over by Najib’s Daddy (Razak) to massively increase the numbers and be given full “bumiputra status”. Why? The standard definition of a minority ruling-class is called Apartheid. It also explains why the bumiputra definition has to include the East Malaysians to help fill the numers. There are at least 5-7million people living in East Malaysia. Deduct that number from the total bumiputra numbers and you will have a 5-7million balance for “Malays”. So, of the 60% Bumiputra (14million), you deduct half and have a 30% Malay Population. This is after the 4million immigrants brought over by Najib’s Daddy in the 60’s. If you deduct that number, then you will be left with 3 million “Malays” in Malaysia. That, my friend, is Apartheid. Why do you think Mahathir insisted that the Malays breed 6.8children per household?

😦

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Michael Chick

October 24, 2007 at 11:53 am

I just attended a conference called “Ornag Asli: First on the Land, Last in the Plan” organized by the Centre for Orang Asli Concerns.

The Orang Asli have been here for 60,000years. Parameswara only arrived 600years ago. The Orang Asli have a history of exactly 100X older than the first Indonesian arrival. Look at any of the Negerito Asli’s, Semai, Temiah, Che Wong, etc. They all look just like “Eddie Murphy”. They are in fact African. They are the ORIGINAL group from the African Migration Theory at 60,000year ago.

What constitutes to the “malay” population, were ex-Africans, ex-Chinese, ex-Taiwanese, ex-Phillipinos, ex-Indonesians and present day “malay”. Forget those that even joined the “race” recently by constitutional definitions like Mahathir, Badawi, and so on.

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kamarul

October 24, 2007 at 12:25 pm

@mike: nice with all the buckets of facts and then u cleverly put something which although i disagree wit govern, i DISAGREE more with u…its when after u impressed ur readers then u put one glaring MISLEADING point and that is apartheid…a very serious accusation

first…with all the deductions crap is totally moronic when it comes to the reality…to make it as apartheid at the end is totally absurd
second…if malaysia is apartheid then australia is apartheid, new zealand is apartheid and a lot others lah man

my last question is what r u trying to portrays when u use the word apartheid??? (which was done by caucasians in south africa) not to mention anti-semitism by caucasians nazis, world war etc
u r trying to portrays other ppl bad by using the sentiment u (of course ur caucasians oso) created before

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kamarul

October 24, 2007 at 12:27 pm

akismet again lah…help please…thanx

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Pretty

October 24, 2007 at 6:16 pm

quoting kamarul:
“but u indons i dont see uguys learning lah…
all uguys did is making the problem worsen…”

To: Kamarul
You already admitt you never been to indonesia, while many of those who comment on your statement been to malaysia and had trying to make a fair comparison and statement. I advise you to come to our country (you said you have a bugis bloodline rite? I assure you, bugis is the big and respectful ethnic here and our vice president is from bugis). Then you could experience the big and different ethnic we had, cultures, people etc etc…the good and the bad… You may not interested but at least if you come and experience it, you would have seen Indonesia from a different perspective (not Indon, you have the right to say Indon and I have the equal right to feel offended by the word), Indonesia is not only Indonesia as a maid or blue collar worker in malaysia or as per depicted by your Malay media.

now i dare you …

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unspun

October 24, 2007 at 6:42 pm

@Kamarul: Have to agree with Pretty here. You need to come to Indonesia and see first hand the dynamics at play here and how people relate to each other. It is an eye opener for many Malaysians, Unspun in his first days in Indonesia included, who have very fixed notions of who is a Malay and what Indonesians are like. You’d be pleasantly surprised.

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kamarul

October 24, 2007 at 6:54 pm

hehe pretty…now this seemed really not a dare…oh God, ur inviting me to indonesia lah…becoz ive never been to indonesia lah, im asking uguys indonesians to explained to me…thats all im asking for and all this while got really some did but most of uguys really commented on the emotional issues rather than the info itself…which really disappointed me

well im a med student, not really enough pocket moneys…got to buy those expensive medical books and devices…if oso got, i really dont have time to go there…but um really i will try
last year i nearly went to Acheh right after the tsunami tragedy…we set up a team of medical students and doctors to go there…with all the money that we gathered ourselves but um sad to say at the end i didnt go due to unavoidable circumstances…hehe…but um i really got to see alot of photos and videos on the victims and dead ppl due to tsunami later…thanks to mercy

thats why i humbly said i never go there, so i dont really know…i need uguys to tell me…let us argue each other even it will become a never ending one…by arguing each other with the hope that we can understand each other…we can really think out of the box…just cut the crap of those emotional expressions, its not worth it, its just making the thing worse

of course u have the right being offended by the word indon…what im asking is that WHY u feel offended??? is it becoz it does have any bad meaning??? or is it becoz the word is being introduced to u by somebody who was degrading??? what i know this words…indon, bangla etc is our jargon, and its our every right to use it, its our language…uguys dont have any right to stop us…UNLESS uguys tell us that it really degrading uguys…

if it doesnot have any bad meaning then, its not the words’ or the language’s fault, its the ppl’s fault who use it to degrade others

now, i double dare u to answer my Qs…hehe 🙂

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kamarul

October 24, 2007 at 7:07 pm

thanx again for the double invitations by pretty and unspun…now i do know it will be great if go to indon…wanna feel like the first time ive been here in Kelantan…but hey i really dont see it in the near future…im so busy in my clinical years and later doing housemanship is like hell and then have to work wit public hosp for 10 years becoz ive been spending alot of public scholarship money…hehe just giving away excuses but really gonna try if got another chance

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Michael Chick

October 24, 2007 at 7:13 pm

Unspun, I am coming over to Jakarta probably in Dec or early Jan. Which area are you in? I’d love to catch up woth you, although I am on a shoot with limited time. The last time I was there, it was unfortunately during the 98/99 riots, and I was staying at the Hyatt Golf Resort (I think that was the name… Just oppposite the airport) The seafood was fantastically delicious as well as cheap in the Kampong just behind the hotel. We were shooting a commercial for Myanmar Airways at the airport.

I got to see the HUGE shopping center downtown as well as Hard Rock and such. The shopping center Atria was bombed one week after I had left. It was a really scary time to be in Indonesia.

I must admit that I was a little upset to see how the poor lived, cooked, washed, bathed and shit in the parit all along the highway from the Airport till Jakarta. That image has always haunted me. Is it still that way today?

The other place in “Indonesia” which I hang out a lot is at my friends’ villa on Batam Island. It overlooks the gold course, and has a magnificent view of Singapore City (albeit far away) set against the backdrop of the golf course.

So, unspun, how close are you to Jakarta Airport?

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unspun

October 24, 2007 at 10:51 pm

@MC: I’m heading KL way November 22ish. If you are down in Jakarta let me know. Can also stay with me – have a spare room and I live very close to the Jakarta Stock Exchange (also near to former Hotel Hilton).

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Vic.Kyle.Ellanne

October 25, 2007 at 4:27 pm

Aiyoyo, why is the Rasa Sayang fight crossed borders?

It seems that Kamarul is the argumentative type. I agree that agument could be good way to learn each and other but it’s the least effective way to pass a message properly. Hope your med studies teaches psychology and communications. I mean, you can’t argue with your patients right?

Logical or illogical, it’s the common ethical that counts. You may be the best sane person but when you don’t check your manners, people don’t respect. I’m sure all religions teaches this and being a declared Muslim, shouldn’t you?

Or should I trace your behaviours to your gene where Bugis were known to be pirates centuries ago. Maybe here is where you inherited the fighting spirits. But hey, they make good leaders too (not considering ethicals). Hope you can use some of your spirits here to make a better Malaysia?

And hey, any Bugis-man been arguing with Kamarul?

For Timor-Leste, as much as I know, it’s in a pitty state, doesn’t understand why it would want any independence surrounded by your previous occupant. Even Singapore hoped to rejoin Malaysia. I mean, geologically not economical viable. But that’s another story lah!! Unless upsun want to start another thread again :p

Unspun, when u come we go eat Satay …. Kajang. Haha.

Back to topic, as MC said, most Malaysian Malays should be able to trace back to Indonesian origins within 3 generations up. Anyone else to prove that?

BTW, which generations you think that started to cross / bring over their traditions to Malaysia? Aren’t there any new tradition amongst the centuries of localised Malaysian or just best at localised traditions from Indonesia?

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kamarul

October 25, 2007 at 4:42 pm

hehe hi Vic.Kyle.Ellanne: at least its what this blogging thing is all about right? um medical communication and psychiatry (we dont learn psychology in medical) is most likely when we deal with pt lah…of course lah when we talk to our pt, we dont simply go and argue with them right away…got to estab rapport and trust man (make the pt trust us so that they can tell everything lah)…but we dont simply trust what they say (not a good relation actually, we want the pt to trust us but we never simply trust them hehe)…its simply for better pt management and of course medicolegal issue lah…i cant apply this to uguys lah…totally different hehe…hey i do argue with my parents hehe but the proper way lah…they oso same type with me ma…

can u pls clarify which behaviour and manners of me that really does not comply with religions and common ethics??? i wondered too, why no Bugis ppl try and argue with me hehe…im like pirates meh??? really??? 🙂

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Vic.Kyle.Ellanne

October 25, 2007 at 5:03 pm

Emmmhhhh…….. lost of words — let me come back to you (^_^)
Hope you are not picking a fight :p

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kamarul

October 25, 2007 at 5:55 pm

hehe okay…as u said im an argumentative type…so u can just commented on me with/without why u said so…if u say why and its logical then im gonna take it seriously…if u not then u gonna answer my Qs to convince me…believe me u dont want the latter

hehe…worried aledy? we will not fight lah…remember im an argumentative type…i hated fighting really

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Vic.Kyle.Ellanne

October 26, 2007 at 12:39 am

Dear Kamarul, was in a rush to go just now. m(_ _)m

Argumentative coz u challenged (almost) every bits that was brought up with choice of words that are not neccessary. I’m not saying that you are at fault. Yes, blogging is meant to argue about issues but look at the previous thread, almost everyone got into emotional discussion with your pieces. How much do you think anyone would try to understand what you tried to convey when you keep using provocative words.

It is obvious that some commentators do not possess English as good as you here and they could only resort to emotional arguments. But by replying with name calling, provocative words and challenging mood, what different are we? Ain’t you trying to get some civilised answers? Then ask question in the civilised way.

Also, what if something that you believe it’s yours but claimed by someone else to be his, how would you react? Are you going to reason or argue? And could reasoning be reasoning if choice of words made people feels they are being insulted. We’re talking about emotion here, how people feels when they hear(read) the words — doesn’t matter if you feels the same way or not.
(Let’s not consider who starts it first or if the words are insulting or not)

Our ministers are pretty good at using the wrong choice of words even assuming that they don’t mean to offence anyone. I’m affraid I find that tendency in you too.

Communications means getting the message accross. But when people get emotional, how accurate can they interpret the message.

Touching on the religious teaching and mannerism, it’s the same. It’s on the counts on how you made people feels rather than what you think they felt. Think about it.

NOTE: ARGUMENT IS NOT DISCUSSION

PS: The rapport you have till now I don’t think is that good — not saying that there aren’t any worst than you here!! Cheers.

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Michael Chick

October 26, 2007 at 1:08 pm

Thanks for the generous invite, unspun. However, I will be arriving with a full crew and there should be at least 5 of us. So unless, you live in a very BIG house….. 😛 I will however, be more than happy to meet you for THE BEST INDONESIAN FOOD Jakarta has to offer.

We are filming a Documentary called “The Right to Live”. It will focus on the “violence towards Women and Children”. As such, we will be filming in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, San Francisco, and Canada.

If you can help us get in touch with a womens’ group in Jakarta, we’d be most grateful. I’m sure my logistics team would appreciate that.

Part of this filming includes that Minangkabau, and their matrichal systems. That’s why I was hoping to get in touch with Rocky Bru, who is Minang. Can you help put me in touch with him?

I’d be filming in Singapore on Nov 25th. And we have to film a few other interviewees as well. Some of them are rape and abuse victims. I’d need to know when you are here in KL, a I’d love to meet up.

CIAO

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Michael Chick

October 30, 2007 at 3:55 pm

Oh ya, I even forgot to address Kamarul

“…first…with all the deductions crap is totally moronic when it comes to the reality…to make it as apartheid at the end is totally absurd
second…if malaysia is apartheid then australia is apartheid, new zealand is apartheid and a lot others lah man…”

MC: Apartheid is defined when there is a minority ruling class. Nothing more, nothing less. Other definitions include:

a) An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination

b) A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.

c) The condition of being separated from others; segregation.

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kamarul

October 30, 2007 at 5:08 pm

@mike: huh again…although i terribly hated those UMNO/BN ppl, in this case no choice got to back them up(im not happy doing this), just to show ur using of the word Apartheid is inappropriate…so i just use ur definition right?

Apartheid:-
1) when there is a minority ruling class_BN=UMNO+MCA+MIC+GERAKAN+PPP etc (i dont remember how many are they). here if we accept malay is minority in malaysia also, based on ur definition u cannot prove that only malay rules. got chinese, indian etc in that ruling coalition….so this first definition i can throw into Sungai Perak

2) Republic of South Africa? Malaysia is nothing near Africa_ this 2nd definition can throw into Sungai Kelantan

3) A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups._this definition is unsufficient and unreliable….eg: in high school they separate students into Science and Art streams and we call it Apartheid?…so this 3rd definition had to be clarified more by mike

4) The condition of being separated from others; segregation….same as (3) 🙂 Cheers man

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Michael Chick

November 1, 2007 at 12:55 am

MC: My friend, Apartheid only refers to segregation by race. Not by any other definition. Not by rich or poor. It is the term used for racial seperation. Not intelligence seperation.

Apartheid:-
1) when there is a minority ruling class_BN=UMNO+MCA+MIC+GERAKAN+PPP etc (i dont remember how many are they). here if we accept malay is minority in malaysia also, based on ur definition u cannot prove that only malay rules. got chinese, indian etc in that ruling coalition….so this first definition i can throw into Sungai Perak
MC: This is true today. However, if you re-read my post, it specified what the situation was pre 1965, before Singapore joined Malaya.

2) Republic of South Africa? Malaysia is nothing near Africa_ this 2nd definition can throw into Sungai Kelantan
MC: We are not discussing geographical nearnes. We are discussing the principal as practised by South Africa. Specifically refering to the segregation by race.

3) A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups._this definition is unsufficient and unreliable….eg: in high school they separate students into Science and Art streams and we call it Apartheid?…so this 3rd definition had to be clarified more by mike
MC: Sure. Apartheid refers to segregation by race. Not by intelligence, or any other measurements. Apartheid places one race over the other in terms of benefits, and priveledges. The example most commonly used is South Africa, whereby one race is given priority over the other. Fortunately, this has ceased to exist in South Africa a well today (a far a I know it). All races are treated equal, and are asigned places in Universities, or given government job tenders baed on merit. Not simply by race.

4) The condition of being separated from others; segregation….same as (3)
MC: Again my friend, this only refers to segregation by race. Which i exactly what Apartheid was so viciously fought against by all first world countries. Malaysia did not qualify for those negotiations and legislative proceedings, as we were Third World at the time of those discussions.

Back to your statement, Australia and New Zealand cannot possibly be practising Apartheid, just as with the case of Malaysia today, after the import of the 4 million Indonesians, coz the majority are in the ruling class. However, the other two “Gwai Loh” countries strictly adhere to admittance to Universities and allocate Government Jobs based on merit.

Hope you had a good raya 🙂

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Jayser

November 22, 2007 at 9:32 am

my Family IS Loo Lian were are you now??

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Jayser

November 22, 2007 at 9:33 am

Loo Lian Family my place is Phillipines from Marikina City, Malanday

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